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Welcome to Casual Temple: Book Club edition! In this engaging book review discussion, we have the pleasure of hosting Iain Shelley, a fellow magick practitioner, occult book enthusiast, and small business owner.
Join us as we delve into the thought-provoking book "Daimonic Reality" by Patrick Harpur and explore the intriguing concepts of Apollonian vs Dionysian world views. Iain brings a unique perspective and valuable insights to our discussion, making this episode a must-watch for anyone interested in the mystical, occult, and philosophical aspects of life.
👼 Is Your Daimon the Same as Your HGA? We also venture into the question of whether your personal "daimon" is synonymous with your HGA (Holy Guardian Angel).
📚 Book Discussion: - "Daimonic Reality" by Patrick Harpur
🔮 Topics Explored:
• Unveiling the mysteries of our "daimonic reality."
• The power of meditation in understanding the self.
• Exploring the essence of the god Jupiter in spiritual practice.
• A captivating encounter with the enigmatic "ghost raccoon."
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to Casual Temple for more thought-provoking conversations with intriguing guests. Stay connected with us for upcoming episodes and updates.
Learn more about Merrily's energy healing work at Celestial Ring Guidance.
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Music provided by SAPPHIRESONGS/ Pond5
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Frater Acher:
Black Abbot · White Magic
Holy Daimon
Holy Heretics
Frater Acher & Craig Slee:
GOETIC ATAVISMS by – Limited Edition Hardcover
Peter Hamilton-Giles:
BOOK OF THE BLACK DRAGON Vol 1 – Et Nigrum Draconicum: being the theory of the Black Dragon
Carl Jung:
Red Book Liber Novus A Reader's Edition
Aiden Wachter:
Six Ways
Robert Anton Wilson:
Prometheus Rising
(Transcript is auto-generated; errors are unintentional.)
00:00:00 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.
00:00:08 Iain
Our lives and it's.
00:00:10 Iain
Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.
00:00:18 Iain
Know but and.
00:00:20 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.
00:00:25 Merrily
Right.
00:00:41 Merrily
This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Merrily Duffy. The Casual Temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Iain.
00:00:56 Merrily
Shelley, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Daimonic Reality.
00:00:59 Merrily
Body by Patrick Harpur, which is a book that explains Harpur's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.
00:01:20 Merrily
Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Iain Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Malkouth. Iain is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harpur, which I will hold up the.
00:01:40 Merrily
Look, without the dust cover.
00:01:43 Merrily
Cause none of us.
00:01:43 Merrily
Like that.
00:01:44 Iain
I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.
00:01:47 Iain
I should grab it actually.
00:01:49 Merrily
If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.
00:02:02 Merrily
To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.
00:02:11 Merrily
Tuning just so you know.
00:02:11 Iain
I know no. What is?
00:02:12 Iain
Up with that every I.
00:02:13 Iain
Forgot about it. You know, when I.
00:02:15 Iain
Reread it this.
00:02:15 Iain
Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.
00:02:23 Iain
They had this.
00:02:24 Iain
Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.
00:02:29 Merrily
I looked into it.
00:02:31 Iain
Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?
00:02:34 Merrily
Right. I mean, no, it's I.
00:02:35 Iain
The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.
00:02:35 Merrily
Mean it's.
00:02:39 Iain
Know it's to you.
00:02:40 Merrily
I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.
00:02:41
OK.
00:02:43 Iain
Oh yes.
00:02:44 Merrily
Say it's.
00:02:45 Iain
This is primarily makes sense.
00:02:47 Merrily
Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.
00:02:54 Merrily
Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.
00:03:13 Merrily
By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.
00:03:31 Merrily
Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.
00:03:43 Iain
OK.
00:03:51 Merrily
Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.
00:04:05 Merrily
Them. There it is.
00:04:09 Merrily
So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.
00:04:16 Merrily
On the book.
00:04:17 Iain
Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.
00:04:28 Iain
To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.
00:04:37 Iain
We were in the when that foolish 5th server.
00:04:40 Iain
It was recommended then and.
00:04:43 Iain
The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.
00:04:51 Iain
Able to accept.
00:04:52 Iain
Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.
00:05:04 Iain
Funds we've all grown up and.
00:05:06 Iain
Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.
00:05:26 Iain
A lot of these.
00:05:27 Iain
Events are just direct taunts to them.
00:05:29 Iain
Reflex and getting over it.
00:05:33 Iain
Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.
00:05:44 Iain
System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.
00:06:04 Iain
I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.
00:06:13 Iain
You know, day-to-day or something.
00:06:15 Iain
Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.
00:06:32 Iain
Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.
00:06:39 Merrily
Right.
00:06:40 Iain
You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.
00:06:55 Iain
I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.
00:06:57 Iain
It When it happens and then.
00:06:59 Iain
You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.
00:07:19 Iain
Versus the more you know, Diane.
00:07:25 Iain
Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.
00:07:44 Iain
That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.
00:07:50 Iain
Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.
00:07:57 Iain
Experience it.
00:07:59 Iain
With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.
00:08:03 Iain
The second time around.
00:08:04 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.
00:08:26 Iain
Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.
00:08:31 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:42 Iain
I don't get the.
00:08:45 Iain
You know, as far as direct experiences?
00:08:47 Iain
You know what?
00:08:48 Iain
Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.
00:09:04 Iain
And we'll.
00:09:05 Iain
Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.
00:09:10 Merrily
Right.
00:09:25 Iain
You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.
00:09:37
OK.
00:09:40 Iain
I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.
00:09:45
Right.
00:10:01 Iain
You know, like I keep waiting you.
00:10:02 Iain
Know for the holy.
00:10:02 Iain
Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.
00:10:03 Merrily
Right.
00:10:05 Iain
You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.
00:10:20 Iain
Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.
00:10:24 Iain
Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.
00:10:31 Merrily
OK.
00:10:35 Iain
And so it's been a bit more of a.
00:10:39 Iain
Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.
00:10:52 Merrily
Right.
00:10:54 Iain
You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.
00:11:11 Iain
If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.
00:11:15 Iain
What you could?
00:11:16 Iain
Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.
00:11:23 Iain
Triangle you know and it's.
00:11:25 Iain
It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.
00:11:27 Merrily
Right.
00:11:32 Iain
Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.
00:11:42 Iain
As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.
00:11:52 Iain
Can practice.
00:11:55
And that's the.
00:11:55 Iain
Challenge about Trump against that elevator.
00:11:58 Merrily
Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.
00:12:06 Merrily
In your house, right?
00:12:08 Iain
Yeah, there you go.
00:12:10 Iain
Yeah, I mean.
00:12:10 Iain
I could. Yeah, I could do.
00:12:12 Iain
It outside. I've got some space.
00:12:13 Iain
I could imagine.
00:12:14 Iain
Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.
00:12:21 Iain
Yeah, but it's also intimidating.
00:12:23 Merrily
Yes. Yeah, it's a little.
00:12:24 Merrily
Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.
00:12:26 Iain
Yeah, yeah, but I need to.
00:12:30 Iain
It sounds exciting.
00:12:30 Merrily
So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.
00:12:40 Iain
Yes. Yeah.
00:12:43 Merrily
Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?
00:12:50
To share, yeah.
00:12:53 Iain
Yeah. So.
00:12:55 Iain
I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?
00:13:14 Iain
It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.
00:13:27 Iain
Learned this.
00:13:27 Iain
Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.
00:13:30 Iain
It but yeah so.
00:13:32 Iain
The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.
00:13:38 Iain
Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.
00:13:59 Iain
It's this.
00:14:00 Iain
It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.
00:14:12 Iain
Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.
00:14:20 Iain
Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.
00:14:28 Iain
It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.
00:14:33 Merrily
Right.
00:14:43 Iain
These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.
00:14:47 Iain
Even shelter they you know, it's.
00:14:51 Iain
It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.
00:15:08 Iain
In the.
00:15:10 Iain
In the collective unconscious.
00:15:13 Iain
It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.
00:15:27 Merrily
Yeah, I.
00:15:28 Iain
It's very hard to define.
00:15:30 Merrily
It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.
00:15:39 Merrily
To put things.
00:15:40 Merrily
In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.
00:15:44 Merrily
Like I gotta. I gotta.
00:15:44
And now we.
00:15:44 Iain
Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.
00:15:48 Merrily
It's super hard.
00:15:49 Merrily
So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.
00:15:55 Merrily
Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.
00:16:14 Merrily
And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.
00:16:31 Merrily
But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?
00:16:39 Merrily
Is that what that's going into?
00:16:41 Iain
Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.
00:16:52 Iain
Is with words and.
00:16:53 Iain
You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.
00:16:59 Iain
Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.
00:17:07 Iain
And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.
00:17:27 Iain
You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.
00:17:40 Iain
Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.
00:17:59 Iain
Or you know.
00:18:00 Iain
Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.
00:18:12 Iain
You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.
00:18:16 Iain
Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.
00:18:20 Iain
But not at the same time you know both with.
00:18:23 Iain
And without form.
00:18:25 Merrily
Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.
00:18:33 Merrily
It that's cool.
00:18:33 Iain
Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.
00:18:47 Iain
This sort of.
00:18:49 Iain
Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.
00:18:56 Iain
A very good.
00:18:57 Iain
His material is very good to work with as.
00:18:59 Iain
Well, in accompaniment.
00:19:00 Iain
With us, yeah.
00:19:02 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.
00:19:12 Merrily
That series.
00:19:12 Iain
40 heretics, yeah.
00:19:12 Merrily
Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.
00:19:14 Merrily
Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?
00:19:32 Iain
Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.
00:19:46 Iain
Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.
00:19:55
If I was.
00:19:56 Iain
At a time, you know, when I was driving.
00:19:59 Iain
You could be just driving past a A.
00:20:01 Iain
Street, you know.
00:20:01 Iain
At night you just pass a.
00:20:03 Iain
Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.
00:20:07 Iain
You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.
00:20:12 Iain
'S real to you?
00:20:13 Iain
Could be just a plastic bag.
00:20:17 Iain
Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.
00:20:24 Iain
Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.
00:20:28 Iain
Telling people about it.
00:20:30 Iain
Then that's real to a bunch of.
00:20:31 Iain
Other people too.
00:20:32 Iain
So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.
00:20:36 Iain
Telephone. Basically where?
00:20:37 Iain
Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.
00:20:42 Iain
For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.
00:20:50 Iain
Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.
00:20:51 Merrily
Right.
00:21:03 Iain
Demonic reality.
00:21:05 Iain
Is just being able to.
00:21:07 Iain
Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.
00:21:20 Iain
You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.
00:21:37 Iain
You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.
00:21:53 Iain
You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.
00:21:59 Iain
And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.
00:22:18 Merrily
That's right.
00:22:18 Iain
Aspect which we can.
00:22:19 Iain
All relate to.
00:22:22 Iain
You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.
00:22:24 Iain
Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.
00:22:44 Iain
Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.
00:22:48 Iain
Where these events?
00:22:49 Iain
Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.
00:22:59 Iain
They'll get the.
00:23:01 Iain
Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.
00:23:07 Iain
About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.
00:23:11 Iain
On in that and.
00:23:12 Iain
You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?
00:23:16 Merrily
Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.
00:23:26 Iain
Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.
00:23:46 Iain
That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.
00:23:52 Iain
You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.
00:24:00 Iain
Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.
00:24:09 Iain
Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.
00:24:18 Iain
Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.
00:24:24 Iain
These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.
00:24:29 Iain
Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.
00:24:34 Merrily
Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.
00:24:45 Merrily
Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.
00:24:51 Merrily
Somebody talked about.
00:24:52 Merrily
His Gray abduction.
00:24:54 Merrily
Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.
00:25:14 Merrily
The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.
00:25:22 Iain
Yeah, I saw interstellar.
00:25:26 Merrily
That movie.
00:25:29 Merrily
But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.
00:25:33 Merrily
Our fears, right, but that.
00:25:35 Merrily
We're going to become some sort of weird.
00:25:37 Merrily
Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.
00:25:41 Iain
Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.
00:25:57 Iain
Of follows the between what?
00:26:01 Iain
First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.
00:26:15 Iain
Of is is, is.
00:26:16 Iain
Out of.
00:26:17 Iain
Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.
00:26:20 Iain
From below, they now come from above.
00:26:23 Iain
So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.
00:26:25 Iain
From next.
00:26:27 Merrily
Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.
00:26:37 Merrily
At large.
00:26:37 Iain
I was thinking that.
00:26:38 Merrily
Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.
00:26:43 Merrily
And so we're probably hearing more around.
00:26:47 Merrily
Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.
00:26:55 Iain
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.
00:26:59 Iain
Alex is what's letting us all do it.
00:27:01 Iain
Really. Is this this new?
00:27:02 Merrily
That's true.
00:27:05 Iain
This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.
00:27:09 Iain
Opening up some minds and.
00:27:11 Iain
Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.
00:27:14 Merrily
So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.
00:27:32 Iain
You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.
00:27:39 Iain
Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?
00:27:50 Iain
And sane. And you know in.
00:27:53 Iain
This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.
00:28:00 Iain
You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.
00:28:09 Merrily
Yep. Like Nope.
00:28:19 Iain
That there is one.
00:28:20 Merrily
Right.
00:28:21 Iain
It's kind of, you know, like.
00:28:21 Iain
Even if I can't think of it, it's like.
00:28:23 Iain
Well, it's probably swamp.
00:28:23 Iain
Gas Cause swamp gas this.
00:28:26 Iain
Is a thing.
00:28:27 Iain
You know that if you swap gas.
00:28:30 Iain
You know like.
00:28:31 Iain
Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.
00:28:35 Iain
As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.
00:28:59 Iain
Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.
00:28:59 Merrily
Right.
00:29:05 Iain
I found that interesting.
00:29:05 Iain
As well.
00:29:06 Iain
Yeah, but.
00:29:07 Merrily
So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.
00:29:17 Merrily
Story of her.
00:29:19 Merrily
Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.
00:29:21 Merrily
And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.
00:29:37 Merrily
Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.
00:29:41 Merrily
1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.
00:29:47 Merrily
And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.
00:29:57 Iain
She knew, right?
00:29:58 Merrily
And then yes and.
00:29:59 Merrily
Then so she had to go with like a.
00:30:01 Merrily
Pile like of.
00:30:02 Merrily
Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.
00:30:06 Merrily
Into that forest.
00:30:08 Iain
Ohh man.
00:30:08 Merrily
To like get.
00:30:09 Merrily
To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.
00:30:13 Merrily
Apparently, according to my mom.
00:30:14 Iain
Very tense relations, yeah.
00:30:17 Merrily
Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.
00:30:37 Merrily
As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?
00:30:45 Merrily
Like oh so.
00:30:45 Merrily
Naive and so like ohh they just.
00:30:48 Merrily
Not cool, yeah.
00:30:50 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.
00:31:02 Iain
You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.
00:31:09 Iain
You know but and.
00:31:10 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.
00:31:16
Right.
00:31:21 Iain
The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.
00:31:30 Iain
Or whatever if we.
00:31:33 Iain
If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.
00:31:44 Iain
Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.
00:32:02 Iain
Existing more on the astral plane.
00:32:05 Iain
In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.
00:32:25 Iain
As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.
00:32:38 Iain
With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.
00:32:47 Iain
A lot of change.
00:32:48 Iain
As we sort of have a more.
00:32:51 Iain
As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.
00:32:57 Iain
I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.
00:33:12 Iain
Trying to find our way.
00:33:14 Merrily
Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.
00:33:23 Merrily
I never considered.
00:33:23 Iain
I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.
00:33:24
That, yeah.
00:33:30 Iain
Out of me, that's fun.
00:33:30 Merrily
No, I followed it. It was great.
00:33:32 Merrily
Now I'm going to have to chew.
00:33:33 Merrily
On that too.
00:33:36 Merrily
Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.
00:33:45 Merrily
It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.
00:33:47 Iain
Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.
00:33:50 Iain
And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.
00:33:57 Iain
All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.
00:34:00 Iain
They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.
00:34:20 Iain
Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.
00:34:23 Iain
Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.
00:34:32 Iain
All seem to come out.
00:34:33 Iain
You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.
00:34:39
Right.
00:34:43 Iain
That these events come from something that we all are.
00:34:46 Iain
Connected to you know.
00:34:48 Iain
These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.
00:35:08 Iain
You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.
00:35:18 Iain
Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?
00:35:25 Merrily
Right.
00:35:29 Iain
That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.
00:35:33 Iain
They happen, but I think.
00:35:35 Iain
Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.
00:35:40 Merrily
That's true.
00:35:55 Iain
I'm kind of like.
00:35:57 Iain
It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?
00:36:00 Iain
Distract us from.
00:36:01 Iain
Right now, with these stories, it's just.
00:36:03 Iain
Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.
00:36:05 Iain
But it's like because.
00:36:08 Iain
So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.
00:36:13 Iain
But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.
00:36:21 Iain
Military footage and stuff and.
00:36:26 Iain
You know, I I.
00:36:27 Iain
Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.
00:36:32 Merrily
Right.
00:36:34 Iain
But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.
00:36:46 Merrily
Right.
00:36:47 Iain
Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.
00:36:51 Iain
It's it's it's a direct it.
00:36:53 Iain
Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.
00:36:56 Iain
I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.
00:37:07 Iain
You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.
00:37:13 Iain
Did those happen?
00:37:15 Iain
They're perfect, you know.
00:37:16 Iain
The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.
00:37:21 Iain
Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.
00:37:36 Iain
Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.
00:37:56 Iain
To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.
00:38:00 Iain
With and it's like.
00:38:02 Iain
Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.
00:38:11 Iain
Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.
00:38:28 Iain
As possible fiction.
00:38:31 Iain
And that's where it's sort of going to stay.
00:38:36 Iain
I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.
00:38:49 Iain
Newborn he he swiped he.
00:38:52 Iain
Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.
00:38:56 Iain
Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.
00:39:03 Merrily
That's right.
00:39:04 Iain
Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.
00:39:10 Iain
It's a taunt.
00:39:12 Iain
You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.
00:39:31
The other one.
00:39:33 Merrily
Yeah, I can see the diagram.
00:39:35 Iain
Yeah, where links.
00:39:37 Iain
All the phenomena.
00:39:38 Iain
It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.
00:39:50 Iain
And it sort of links them across a continuum.
00:39:53 Iain
That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.
00:39:57 Iain
Context basically for them to all being.
00:40:01 Iain
It's he does give a nice.
00:40:03 Iain
Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.
00:40:06 Iain
And that's kind of what I like in that.
00:40:09 Iain
You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.
00:40:19 Iain
What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.
00:40:21 Merrily
Right.
00:40:26 Iain
Hermes, you know of a.
00:40:28 Iain
A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.
00:40:34 Iain
But but we will also be able to forget.
00:40:38 Iain
That fact and just.
00:40:39 Iain
Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.
00:40:41 Iain
Accepting both those realities.
00:40:43 Iain
Is is so.
00:40:46 Iain
I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.
00:40:58 Iain
Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.
00:41:02 Iain
Where you allow for.
00:41:04 Iain
Crazy things, but.
00:41:07 Iain
Live in a rational world.
00:41:08 Merrily
Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.
00:41:21 Iain
Exactly, yeah.
00:41:23 Iain
He's he's a baby. He was a baby.
00:41:25 Iain
At this time, he had.
00:41:25 Merrily
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27 Iain
He had. It was pure.
00:41:28 Iain
Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.
00:41:34 Iain
Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.
00:41:37 Merrily
Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.
00:41:43 Merrily
Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.
00:42:04 Merrily
And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.
00:42:11 Merrily
Have to do you believe somebody's story or?
00:42:13 Merrily
Do you not, you know, like?
00:42:17 Merrily
It's kind of like that.
00:42:18 Iain
Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.
00:42:36 Merrily
That's right.
00:42:39 Iain
Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.
00:42:59 Iain
Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.
00:43:03 Iain
Of both worlds.
00:43:04 Merrily
Right.
00:43:05 Iain
And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.
00:43:16 Iain
Very helpful for me in my own.
00:43:18 Iain
Life, I must say, yeah.
00:43:21 Merrily
So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.
00:43:42
Of these.
00:43:43 Merrily
Understandings. But how do you square?
00:43:46 Merrily
Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.
00:43:57 Iain
I love it you.
00:43:58 Iain
Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.
00:43:58
I yeah.
00:44:05 Iain
You know all of the.
00:44:08 Iain
It's really satisfying, yeah.
00:44:11 Merrily
So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.
00:44:17 Merrily
Because I don't want to fall into.
00:44:18 Merrily
This trap of like.
00:44:21 Merrily
Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.
00:44:24 Merrily
Kabbalah, right?
00:44:25 Iain
I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.
00:44:33 Merrily
Oh, OK.
00:44:36 Merrily
Got you.
00:44:47 Iain
Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.
00:44:50 Merrily
Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.
00:44:54 Iain
Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.
00:44:56 Iain
You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.
00:44:59 Iain
The pads, yeah.
00:45:00 Merrily
List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.
00:45:06 Iain
Yeah, it seeps in over time.
00:45:09 Iain
It really does, especially.
00:45:11 Iain
Because it just helps you learn.
00:45:12 Iain
I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.
00:45:15 Merrily
Oh yeah.
00:45:17 Iain
You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.
00:45:23 Iain
So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.
00:45:28 Merrily
Right.
00:45:30 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:34 Iain
But it's just to learn passively, just to.
00:45:37 Iain
Mostly tarot, yeah.
00:45:39 Merrily
Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.
00:45:43 Iain
Exactly. No, I know all.
00:45:43 Merrily
Happening, yeah.
00:45:45 Iain
The numbered you know exactly, yeah.
00:45:48 Iain
Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.
00:45:50 Iain
That's the sort of.
00:45:51 Iain
Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.
00:46:00 Iain
That very well accepts A demonic one as well.
00:46:03 Iain
They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.
00:46:07 Merrily
So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.
00:46:10 Iain
Jump. Jump around.
00:46:12 Merrily
Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.
00:46:27 Merrily
In certain systems.
00:46:29 Merrily
Like, how do you?
00:46:31 Merrily
How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?
00:46:43 Iain
As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.
00:46:55 Merrily
Right.
00:46:59 Iain
The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.
00:47:11 Iain
Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.
00:47:14 Iain
Angels right in the middle and.
00:47:15 Iain
Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.
00:47:19 Iain
Sort of as our higher self as they say.
00:47:24 Iain
As far as you know, personal.
00:47:27 Iain
Experiences with my own.
00:47:31 Iain
Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.
00:47:39 Iain
And I think it's just.
00:47:41 Iain
The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.
00:47:49
Right, yes.
00:47:56 Iain
It's the. It's what, people.
00:47:58 Iain
I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.
00:47:59 Iain
Hear as well, which is you know.
00:48:02 Iain
That's kind of.
00:48:02 Iain
It you know, but that's why that's why you.
00:48:04 Iain
Need to do it.
00:48:05 Iain
Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.
00:48:25 Iain
Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.
00:48:29 Merrily
Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.
00:48:35 Merrily
Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.
00:48:40 Merrily
Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.
00:49:01 Merrily
Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.
00:49:08
Good luck.
00:49:10
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:14 Merrily
Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.
00:49:24 Merrily
Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.
00:49:28 Merrily
Yeah, because you need to parse out.
00:49:32 Merrily
The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.
00:49:39 Merrily
Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.
00:49:44 Iain
Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.
00:49:51 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:52 Iain
Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.
00:49:57 Iain
Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.
00:50:02 Iain
The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.
00:50:08 Iain
Like that method.
00:50:09 Merrily
I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.
00:50:13 Merrily
In her practice.
00:50:13 Iain
And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.
00:50:16 Merrily
Oh, fraud rocker does.
00:50:17 Iain
To you, they're links too.
00:50:19 Merrily
I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.
00:50:23 Merrily
Something like that.
00:50:24 Iain
Yeah, they work together, yeah.
00:50:25 Iain
Something like that, yeah.
00:50:28 Merrily
Well, cool. Let's see, I have.
00:50:32 Merrily
OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.
00:50:46 Merrily
There my question.
00:50:48 Iain
Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.
00:50:52 Iain
I found that they are.
00:50:55 Iain
Used to usually break someone out of what's.
00:50:59 Iain
I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.
00:51:10 Iain
Sort of.
00:51:11 Iain
Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.
00:51:21 Iain
In it but he.
00:51:23 Iain
He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.
00:51:34 Iain
Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.
00:51:54 Iain
Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.
00:52:06 Iain
Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.
00:52:25 Iain
Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.
00:52:32 Merrily
MM.
00:52:45 Iain
Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.
00:52:54 Iain
Up and.
00:52:55 Iain
Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.
00:53:05 Iain
I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.
00:53:13 Iain
You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.
00:53:16 Iain
Go up, up.
00:53:17 Iain
Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.
00:53:19 Iain
They you.
00:53:20 Iain
Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.
00:53:22 Iain
Can imagine you.
00:53:23 Iain
Know. Imagine it's just on on.
00:53:24 Iain
The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.
00:53:32 Iain
Above to it.
00:53:33 Iain
Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.
00:53:41 Iain
So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.
00:54:02 Iain
So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.
00:54:13 Iain
It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.
00:54:16 Merrily
Right.
00:54:33 Iain
You know, often you find it to be the most.
00:54:36 Iain
The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.
00:54:49 Iain
It can it.
00:54:49 Iain
Can it even just?
00:54:50 Iain
Be something like movies as well.
00:54:52 Iain
Or any pop culture. A lot of you.
00:54:54 Iain
Know that's why art.
00:54:56 Iain
Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.
00:55:06 Merrily
Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.
00:55:12 Merrily
Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.
00:55:26 Merrily
American boy of a certain tribe, you.
00:55:28 Merrily
Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?
00:55:33 Merrily
Few days or whatever.
00:55:34 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:35 Merrily
And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.
00:55:46 Merrily
Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.
00:56:06 Merrily
That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.
00:56:15 Merrily
Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.
00:56:28
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:31 Iain
Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.
00:56:40 Iain
This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.
00:57:01 Iain
Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.
00:57:11 Merrily
Right.
00:57:12 Iain
You know, so I think it's a big part of what?
00:57:15 Iain
Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.
00:57:23 Iain
The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.
00:57:35 Merrily
Right.
00:57:36 Iain
And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.
00:57:41 Iain
Most like most.
00:57:42 Iain
Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.
00:57:46 Iain
Of it, they've been.
00:57:47 Iain
Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.
00:57:52 Merrily
I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.
00:58:13 Merrily
Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.
00:58:23 Merrily
Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.
00:58:35 Merrily
To kind of figure it.
00:58:35 Merrily
Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.
00:58:43 Iain
Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.
00:58:49 Iain
I want to share.
00:58:51 Iain
You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.
00:58:56
Right.
00:58:57 Iain
You know it's.
00:59:01 Iain
It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.
00:59:13 Iain
As a loose.
00:59:13 Iain
Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.
00:59:15 Merrily
Right.
00:59:21 Iain
I'm going.
00:59:21 Iain
Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.
00:59:24 Iain
Bit you know it's.
00:59:25 Iain
Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.
00:59:31 Iain
Books and stuff.
00:59:32 Iain
It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.
00:59:35 Iain
Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.
00:59:37 Merrily
Over there now. Me too. Yeah.
00:59:40 Iain
I will falter.
00:59:41 Iain
And working on it.
00:59:43 Merrily
Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?
00:59:49 Iain
Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.
00:59:51 Merrily
It here you drew on.
00:59:53 Iain
In my cash box is the four.
00:59:56 Iain
Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.
00:59:57 Merrily
Oh, nice.
01:00:16 Iain
Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.
01:00:23 Iain
It, you know, obviously on Thursday.
01:00:25
You know that.
01:00:25 Merrily
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
01:00:27 Iain
The success stories.
01:00:29 Iain
Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.
01:00:31 Merrily
I know.
01:00:31 Iain
Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.
01:00:43 Merrily
Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.
01:00:46 Merrily
Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.
01:00:50 Iain
Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.
01:00:53 Iain
I got. I thought I'd be happy.
01:00:55 Iain
With hard to like.
01:00:56 Iain
No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.
01:00:59 Iain
They're so great to hold.
01:01:00 Iain
Oh, I can't help it.
01:01:02 Merrily
I love that Jupiter energy.
01:01:04 Merrily
That did this book impact your magical practice?
01:01:08 Iain
I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.
01:01:13
You know.
01:01:15 Iain
Yeah, it hasn't really.
01:01:18 Iain
It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.
01:01:24 Iain
When it just sort of helps loosen.
01:01:26 Iain
The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.
01:01:34 Iain
Evidence like that will fairy shoe.
01:01:38 Iain
Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.
01:01:43 Iain
Chew on that, yeah.
01:01:44
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:46 Iain
Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?
01:01:52 Iain
Middle of nowhere.
01:01:53 Iain
Yeah, you know, it's.
01:01:54 Iain
Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.
01:02:03 Iain
Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.
01:02:03
That's right.
01:02:06 Iain
Found you know, off the beaten path, you.
01:02:08 Iain
Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?
01:02:10 Iain
And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.
01:02:20 Iain
Of it in.
01:02:21 Iain
The book, you know. So it's just like.
01:02:22 Iain
Explain that you know. And so that's.
01:02:25 Iain
And and you can't and that's sort.
01:02:27 Iain
Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.
01:02:30 Iain
Crop circles and so.
01:02:33 Iain
For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.
01:02:39 Iain
Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.
01:02:46 Iain
Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.
01:03:07 Iain
As far as his conclusions about how.
01:03:12 Iain
I'm not sure you know.
01:03:13 Iain
Like it, I don't know.
01:03:15 Merrily
If I agree.
01:03:16 Iain
With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.
01:03:30 Iain
I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.
01:03:35 Iain
But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.
01:03:54 Iain
Ultimately all these.
01:03:56 Iain
You know all the events he gives in the.
01:03:58 Iain
Book, you know, happen to one person.
01:04:00 Iain
Most of the time you.
01:04:01 Merrily
Right.
01:04:01 Iain
Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.
01:04:14 Iain
Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.
01:04:26 Iain
Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.
01:04:45 Merrily
Right.
01:04:46 Iain
That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.
01:05:02 Merrily
Right.
01:05:04 Iain
Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.
01:05:14 Iain
Them, you know like.
01:05:15 Iain
It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.
01:05:24 Iain
Underneath the.
01:05:25 Merrily
Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.
01:05:45 Merrily
But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.
01:05:54 Iain
Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.
01:06:10 Iain
Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.
01:06:20 Iain
Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.
01:06:31 Iain
But that's.
01:06:33 Iain
An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.
01:06:43 Iain
Personal and then.
01:06:44 Iain
A bit more believable at the.
01:06:45 Iain
Same time and so.
01:06:48 Iain
That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.
01:06:55 Iain
Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.
01:07:09 Iain
I feel it.
01:07:10 Iain
I feel like I.
01:07:11 Iain
Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.
01:07:14 Iain
Have had.
01:07:15 Iain
Very dreamlike nature to.
01:07:18 Merrily
Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.
01:07:19 Merrily
Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.
01:07:24 Iain
Oh I.
01:07:25 Iain
I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.
01:07:28 Iain
Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.
01:07:29 Merrily
No, you were great. No, you're great.
01:07:33 Merrily
So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.
01:07:47 Merrily
That you've been enjoying lately, that.
01:07:48 Merrily
You'd like to share?
01:07:52 Iain
Well, I'm just. I'm the.
01:07:53 Iain
Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.
01:07:58 Iain
That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.
01:08:10 Iain
World you experience.
01:08:11 Iain
And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?
01:08:18 Iain
Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.
01:08:32 Iain
Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.
01:08:52 Iain
You know, especially as a society will get.
01:08:55 Iain
It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.
01:09:12 Iain
Gospel of meditation.
01:09:14 Iain
That's it.
01:09:15 Iain
It's meditate. Learn silence.
01:09:20 Iain
Know where you are.
01:09:23 Iain
Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.
01:09:44 Iain
It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.
01:09:55 Iain
You know, just knowing.
01:09:57 Iain
Where you are.
01:09:59 Iain
Be aligned to the directions and just.
01:10:04 Iain
And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.
01:10:07
That's just fine.
01:10:08 Iain
Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.
01:10:18 Iain
You know.
01:10:19 Iain
Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.
01:10:24 Merrily
Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.
01:10:35 Merrily
Of blew my mind a little.
01:10:35 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:37 Iain
That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.
01:10:39 Iain
Cause it's like why did?
01:10:39 Iain
I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.
01:10:43 Iain
That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.
01:10:44 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:49 Iain
Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.
01:10:54 Iain
Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.
01:11:14 Iain
Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.
01:11:31 Iain
Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.
01:11:34 Merrily
Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.
01:11:40 Iain
That sounds.
01:11:41 Merrily
Cells, yeah.
01:11:44 Merrily
So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?
01:11:53 Iain
Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.
01:12:04 Iain
King Rainbow 8.
01:12:06 Iain
All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.
01:12:22 Merrily
Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.
01:12:37
Yeah, yeah, I.
01:12:38 Iain
Appreciate that. Thank you.
01:12:40
Thank you.
01:12:44 Merrily
That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.
01:12:54 Merrily
Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.
01:13:04 Merrily
Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.
01:13:16 Merrily
Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Tempo podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.
udio file
EP07_Casual Temple_Iain Shelley_2023-09-12.mp3
Transcript
00:00:00 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.
00:00:08 Iain
Our lives and it's.
00:00:10 Iain
Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.
00:00:18 Iain
Know but and.
00:00:20 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.
00:00:25 Merrily
Right.
00:00:41 Merrily
This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.
00:00:56 Merrily
Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.
00:00:59 Merrily
Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.
00:01:20 Merrily
Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.
00:01:40 Merrily
Look, without the dust cover.
00:01:43 Merrily
Cause none of us.
00:01:43 Merrily
Like that.
00:01:44 Iain
I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.
00:01:47 Iain
I should grab it actually.
00:01:49 Merrily
If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.
00:02:02 Merrily
To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.
00:02:11 Merrily
Tuning just so you know.
00:02:11 Iain
I know no. What is?
00:02:12 Iain
Up with that every I.
00:02:13 Iain
Forgot about it. You know, when I.
00:02:15 Iain
Reread it this.
00:02:15 Iain
Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.
00:02:23 Iain
They had this.
00:02:24 Iain
Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.
00:02:29 Merrily
I looked into it.
00:02:31 Iain
Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?
00:02:34 Merrily
Right. I mean, no, it's I.
00:02:35 Iain
The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.
00:02:35 Merrily
Mean it's.
00:02:39 Iain
Know it's to you.
00:02:40 Merrily
I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.
00:02:41
OK.
00:02:43 Iain
Oh yes.
00:02:44 Merrily
Say it's.
00:02:45 Iain
This is primarily makes sense.
00:02:47 Merrily
Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.
00:02:54 Merrily
Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.
00:03:13 Merrily
By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.
00:03:31 Merrily
Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.
00:03:43 Iain
OK.
00:03:51 Merrily
Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.
00:04:05 Merrily
Them. There it is.
00:04:09 Merrily
So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.
00:04:16 Merrily
On the book.
00:04:17 Iain
Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.
00:04:28 Iain
To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.
00:04:37 Iain
We were in the when that foolish 5th server.
00:04:40 Iain
It was recommended then and.
00:04:43 Iain
The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.
00:04:51 Iain
Able to accept.
00:04:52 Iain
Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.
00:05:04 Iain
Funds we've all grown up and.
00:05:06 Iain
Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.
00:05:26 Iain
A lot of these.
00:05:27 Iain
Events are just direct taunts to them.
00:05:29 Iain
Reflex and getting over it.
00:05:33 Iain
Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.
00:05:44 Iain
System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.
00:06:04 Iain
I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.
00:06:13 Iain
You know, day-to-day or something.
00:06:15 Iain
Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.
00:06:32 Iain
Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.
00:06:39 Merrily
Right.
00:06:40 Iain
You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.
00:06:55 Iain
I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.
00:06:57 Iain
It When it happens and then.
00:06:59 Iain
You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.
00:07:19 Iain
Versus the more you know, Diane.
00:07:25 Iain
Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.
00:07:44 Iain
That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.
00:07:50 Iain
Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.
00:07:57 Iain
Experience it.
00:07:59 Iain
With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.
00:08:03 Iain
The second time around.
00:08:04 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.
00:08:26 Iain
Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.
00:08:31 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:42 Iain
I don't get the.
00:08:45 Iain
You know, as far as direct experiences?
00:08:47 Iain
You know what?
00:08:48 Iain
Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.
00:09:04 Iain
And we'll.
00:09:05 Iain
Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.
00:09:10 Merrily
Right.
00:09:25 Iain
You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.
00:09:37
OK.
00:09:40 Iain
I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.
00:09:45
Right.
00:10:01 Iain
You know, like I keep waiting you.
00:10:02 Iain
Know for the holy.
00:10:02 Iain
Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.
00:10:03 Merrily
Right.
00:10:05 Iain
You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.
00:10:20 Iain
Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.
00:10:24 Iain
Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.
00:10:31 Merrily
OK.
00:10:35 Iain
And so it's been a bit more of a.
00:10:39 Iain
Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.
00:10:52 Merrily
Right.
00:10:54 Iain
You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.
00:11:11 Iain
If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.
00:11:15 Iain
What you could?
00:11:16 Iain
Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.
00:11:23 Iain
Triangle you know and it's.
00:11:25 Iain
It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.
00:11:27 Merrily
Right.
00:11:32 Iain
Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.
00:11:42 Iain
As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.
00:11:52 Iain
Can practice.
00:11:55
And that's the.
00:11:55 Iain
Challenge about Trump against that elevator.
00:11:58 Merrily
Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.
00:12:06 Merrily
In your house, right?
00:12:08 Iain
Yeah, there you go.
00:12:10 Iain
Yeah, I mean.
00:12:10 Iain
I could. Yeah, I could do.
00:12:12 Iain
It outside. I've got some space.
00:12:13 Iain
I could imagine.
00:12:14 Iain
Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.
00:12:21 Iain
Yeah, but it's also intimidating.
00:12:23 Merrily
Yes. Yeah, it's a little.
00:12:24 Merrily
Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.
00:12:26 Iain
Yeah, yeah, but I need to.
00:12:30 Iain
It sounds exciting.
00:12:30 Merrily
So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.
00:12:40 Iain
Yes. Yeah.
00:12:43 Merrily
Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?
00:12:50
To share, yeah.
00:12:53 Iain
Yeah. So.
00:12:55 Iain
I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?
00:13:14 Iain
It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.
00:13:27 Iain
Learned this.
00:13:27 Iain
Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.
00:13:30 Iain
It but yeah so.
00:13:32 Iain
The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.
00:13:38 Iain
Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.
00:13:59 Iain
It's this.
00:14:00 Iain
It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.
00:14:12 Iain
Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.
00:14:20 Iain
Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.
00:14:28 Iain
It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.
00:14:33 Merrily
Right.
00:14:43 Iain
These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.
00:14:47 Iain
Even shelter they you know, it's.
00:14:51 Iain
It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.
00:15:08 Iain
In the.
00:15:10 Iain
In the collective unconscious.
00:15:13 Iain
It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.
00:15:27 Merrily
Yeah, I.
00:15:28 Iain
It's very hard to define.
00:15:30 Merrily
It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.
00:15:39 Merrily
To put things.
00:15:40 Merrily
In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.
00:15:44 Merrily
Like I gotta. I gotta.
00:15:44
And now we.
00:15:44 Iain
Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.
00:15:48 Merrily
It's super hard.
00:15:49 Merrily
So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.
00:15:55 Merrily
Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.
00:16:14 Merrily
And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.
00:16:31 Merrily
But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?
00:16:39 Merrily
Is that what that's going into?
00:16:41 Iain
Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.
00:16:52 Iain
Is with words and.
00:16:53 Iain
You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.
00:16:59 Iain
Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.
00:17:07 Iain
And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.
00:17:27 Iain
You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.
00:17:40 Iain
Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.
00:17:59 Iain
Or you know.
00:18:00 Iain
Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.
00:18:12 Iain
You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.
00:18:16 Iain
Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.
00:18:20 Iain
But not at the same time you know both with.
00:18:23 Iain
And without form.
00:18:25 Merrily
Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.
00:18:33 Merrily
It that's cool.
00:18:33 Iain
Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.
00:18:47 Iain
This sort of.
00:18:49 Iain
Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.
00:18:56 Iain
A very good.
00:18:57 Iain
His material is very good to work with as.
00:18:59 Iain
Well, in accompaniment.
00:19:00 Iain
With us, yeah.
00:19:02 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.
00:19:12 Merrily
That series.
00:19:12 Iain
40 heretics, yeah.
00:19:12 Merrily
Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.
00:19:14 Merrily
Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?
00:19:32 Iain
Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.
00:19:46 Iain
Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.
00:19:55
If I was.
00:19:56 Iain
At a time, you know, when I was driving.
00:19:59 Iain
You could be just driving past a A.
00:20:01 Iain
Street, you know.
00:20:01 Iain
At night you just pass a.
00:20:03 Iain
Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.
00:20:07 Iain
You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.
00:20:12 Iain
'S real to you?
00:20:13 Iain
Could be just a plastic bag.
00:20:17 Iain
Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.
00:20:24 Iain
Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.
00:20:28 Iain
Telling people about it.
00:20:30 Iain
Then that's real to a bunch of.
00:20:31 Iain
Other people too.
00:20:32 Iain
So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.
00:20:36 Iain
Telephone. Basically where?
00:20:37 Iain
Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.
00:20:42 Iain
For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.
00:20:50 Iain
Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.
00:20:51 Merrily
Right.
00:21:03 Iain
Demonic reality.
00:21:05 Iain
Is just being able to.
00:21:07 Iain
Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.
00:21:20 Iain
You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.
00:21:37 Iain
You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.
00:21:53 Iain
You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.
00:21:59 Iain
And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.
00:22:18 Merrily
That's right.
00:22:18 Iain
Aspect which we can.
00:22:19 Iain
All relate to.
00:22:22 Iain
You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.
00:22:24 Iain
Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.
00:22:44 Iain
Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.
00:22:48 Iain
Where these events?
00:22:49 Iain
Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.
00:22:59 Iain
They'll get the.
00:23:01 Iain
Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.
00:23:07 Iain
About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.
00:23:11 Iain
On in that and.
00:23:12 Iain
You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?
00:23:16 Merrily
Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.
00:23:26 Iain
Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.
00:23:46 Iain
That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.
00:23:52 Iain
You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.
00:24:00 Iain
Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.
00:24:09 Iain
Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.
00:24:18 Iain
Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.
00:24:24 Iain
These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.
00:24:29 Iain
Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.
00:24:34 Merrily
Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.
00:24:45 Merrily
Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.
00:24:51 Merrily
Somebody talked about.
00:24:52 Merrily
His Gray abduction.
00:24:54 Merrily
Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.
00:25:14 Merrily
The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.
00:25:22 Iain
Yeah, I saw interstellar.
00:25:26 Merrily
That movie.
00:25:29 Merrily
But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.
00:25:33 Merrily
Our fears, right, but that.
00:25:35 Merrily
We're going to become some sort of weird.
00:25:37 Merrily
Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.
00:25:41 Iain
Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.
00:25:57 Iain
Of follows the between what?
00:26:01 Iain
First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.
00:26:15 Iain
Of is is, is.
00:26:16 Iain
Out of.
00:26:17 Iain
Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.
00:26:20 Iain
From below, they now come from above.
00:26:23 Iain
So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.
00:26:25 Iain
From next.
00:26:27 Merrily
Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.
00:26:37 Merrily
At large.
00:26:37 Iain
I was thinking that.
00:26:38 Merrily
Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.
00:26:43 Merrily
And so we're probably hearing more around.
00:26:47 Merrily
Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.
00:26:55 Iain
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.
00:26:59 Iain
Alex is what's letting us all do it.
00:27:01 Iain
Really. Is this this new?
00:27:02 Merrily
That's true.
00:27:05 Iain
This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.
00:27:09 Iain
Opening up some minds and.
00:27:11 Iain
Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.
00:27:14 Merrily
So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.
00:27:32 Iain
You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.
00:27:39 Iain
Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?
00:27:50 Iain
And sane. And you know in.
00:27:53 Iain
This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.
00:28:00 Iain
You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.
00:28:09 Merrily
Yep. Like Nope.
00:28:19 Iain
That there is one.
00:28:20 Merrily
Right.
00:28:21 Iain
It's kind of, you know, like.
00:28:21 Iain
Even if I can't think of it, it's like.
00:28:23 Iain
Well, it's probably swamp.
00:28:23 Iain
Gas Cause swamp gas this.
00:28:26 Iain
Is a thing.
00:28:27 Iain
You know that if you swap gas.
00:28:30 Iain
You know like.
00:28:31 Iain
Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.
00:28:35 Iain
As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.
00:28:59 Iain
Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.
00:28:59 Merrily
Right.
00:29:05 Iain
I found that interesting.
00:29:05 Iain
As well.
00:29:06 Iain
Yeah, but.
00:29:07 Merrily
So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.
00:29:17 Merrily
Story of her.
00:29:19 Merrily
Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.
00:29:21 Merrily
And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.
00:29:37 Merrily
Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.
00:29:41 Merrily
1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.
00:29:47 Merrily
And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.
00:29:57 Iain
She knew, right?
00:29:58 Merrily
And then yes and.
00:29:59 Merrily
Then so she had to go with like a.
00:30:01 Merrily
Pile like of.
00:30:02 Merrily
Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.
00:30:06 Merrily
Into that forest.
00:30:08 Iain
Ohh man.
00:30:08 Merrily
To like get.
00:30:09 Merrily
To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.
00:30:13 Merrily
Apparently, according to my mom.
00:30:14 Iain
Very tense relations, yeah.
00:30:17 Merrily
Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.
00:30:37 Merrily
As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?
00:30:45 Merrily
Like oh so.
00:30:45 Merrily
Naive and so like ohh they just.
00:30:48 Merrily
Not cool, yeah.
00:30:50 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.
00:31:02 Iain
You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.
00:31:09 Iain
You know but and.
00:31:10 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.
00:31:16
Right.
00:31:21 Iain
The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.
00:31:30 Iain
Or whatever if we.
00:31:33 Iain
If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.
00:31:44 Iain
Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.
00:32:02 Iain
Existing more on the astral plane.
00:32:05 Iain
In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.
00:32:25 Iain
As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.
00:32:38 Iain
With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.
00:32:47 Iain
A lot of change.
00:32:48 Iain
As we sort of have a more.
00:32:51 Iain
As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.
00:32:57 Iain
I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.
00:33:12 Iain
Trying to find our way.
00:33:14 Merrily
Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.
00:33:23 Merrily
I never considered.
00:33:23 Iain
I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.
00:33:24
That, yeah.
00:33:30 Iain
Out of me, that's fun.
00:33:30 Merrily
No, I followed it. It was great.
00:33:32 Merrily
Now I'm going to have to chew.
00:33:33 Merrily
On that too.
00:33:36 Merrily
Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.
00:33:45 Merrily
It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.
00:33:47 Iain
Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.
00:33:50 Iain
And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.
00:33:57 Iain
All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.
00:34:00 Iain
They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.
00:34:20 Iain
Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.
00:34:23 Iain
Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.
00:34:32 Iain
All seem to come out.
00:34:33 Iain
You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.
00:34:39
Right.
00:34:43 Iain
That these events come from something that we all are.
00:34:46 Iain
Connected to you know.
00:34:48 Iain
These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.
00:35:08 Iain
You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.
00:35:18 Iain
Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?
00:35:25 Merrily
Right.
00:35:29 Iain
That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.
00:35:33 Iain
They happen, but I think.
00:35:35 Iain
Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.
00:35:40 Merrily
That's true.
00:35:55 Iain
I'm kind of like.
00:35:57 Iain
It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?
00:36:00 Iain
Distract us from.
00:36:01 Iain
Right now, with these stories, it's just.
00:36:03 Iain
Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.
00:36:05 Iain
But it's like because.
00:36:08 Iain
So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.
00:36:13 Iain
But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.
00:36:21 Iain
Military footage and stuff and.
00:36:26 Iain
You know, I I.
00:36:27 Iain
Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.
00:36:32 Merrily
Right.
00:36:34 Iain
But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.
00:36:46 Merrily
Right.
00:36:47 Iain
Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.
00:36:51 Iain
It's it's it's a direct it.
00:36:53 Iain
Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.
00:36:56 Iain
I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.
00:37:07 Iain
You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.
00:37:13 Iain
Did those happen?
00:37:15 Iain
They're perfect, you know.
00:37:16 Iain
The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.
00:37:21 Iain
Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.
00:37:36 Iain
Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.
00:37:56 Iain
To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.
00:38:00 Iain
With and it's like.
00:38:02 Iain
Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.
00:38:11 Iain
Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.
00:38:28 Iain
As possible fiction.
00:38:31 Iain
And that's where it's sort of going to stay.
00:38:36 Iain
I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.
00:38:49 Iain
Newborn he he swiped he.
00:38:52 Iain
Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.
00:38:56 Iain
Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.
00:39:03 Merrily
That's right.
00:39:04 Iain
Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.
00:39:10 Iain
It's a taunt.
00:39:12 Iain
You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.
00:39:31
The other one.
00:39:33 Merrily
Yeah, I can see the diagram.
00:39:35 Iain
Yeah, where links.
00:39:37 Iain
All the phenomena.
00:39:38 Iain
It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.
00:39:50 Iain
And it sort of links them across a continuum.
00:39:53 Iain
That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.
00:39:57 Iain
Context basically for them to all being.
00:40:01 Iain
It's he does give a nice.
00:40:03 Iain
Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.
00:40:06 Iain
And that's kind of what I like in that.
00:40:09 Iain
You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.
00:40:19 Iain
What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.
00:40:21 Merrily
Right.
00:40:26 Iain
Hermes, you know of a.
00:40:28 Iain
A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.
00:40:34 Iain
But but we will also be able to forget.
00:40:38 Iain
That fact and just.
00:40:39 Iain
Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.
00:40:41 Iain
Accepting both those realities.
00:40:43 Iain
Is is so.
00:40:46 Iain
I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.
00:40:58 Iain
Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.
00:41:02 Iain
Where you allow for.
00:41:04 Iain
Crazy things, but.
00:41:07 Iain
Live in a rational world.
00:41:08 Merrily
Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.
00:41:21 Iain
Exactly, yeah.
00:41:23 Iain
He's he's a baby. He was a baby.
00:41:25 Iain
At this time, he had.
00:41:25 Merrily
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27 Iain
He had. It was pure.
00:41:28 Iain
Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.
00:41:34 Iain
Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.
00:41:37 Merrily
Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.
00:41:43 Merrily
Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.
00:42:04 Merrily
And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.
00:42:11 Merrily
Have to do you believe somebody's story or?
00:42:13 Merrily
Do you not, you know, like?
00:42:17 Merrily
It's kind of like that.
00:42:18 Iain
Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.
00:42:36 Merrily
That's right.
00:42:39 Iain
Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.
00:42:59 Iain
Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.
00:43:03 Iain
Of both worlds.
00:43:04 Merrily
Right.
00:43:05 Iain
And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.
00:43:16 Iain
Very helpful for me in my own.
00:43:18 Iain
Life, I must say, yeah.
00:43:21 Merrily
So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.
00:43:42
Of these.
00:43:43 Merrily
Understandings. But how do you square?
00:43:46 Merrily
Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.
00:43:57 Iain
I love it you.
00:43:58 Iain
Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.
00:43:58
I yeah.
00:44:05 Iain
You know all of the.
00:44:08 Iain
It's really satisfying, yeah.
00:44:11 Merrily
So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.
00:44:17 Merrily
Because I don't want to fall into.
00:44:18 Merrily
This trap of like.
00:44:21 Merrily
Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.
00:44:24 Merrily
Kabbalah, right?
00:44:25 Iain
I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.
00:44:33 Merrily
Oh, OK.
00:44:36 Merrily
Got you.
00:44:47 Iain
Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.
00:44:50 Merrily
Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.
00:44:54 Iain
Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.
00:44:56 Iain
You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.
00:44:59 Iain
The pads, yeah.
00:45:00 Merrily
List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.
00:45:06 Iain
Yeah, it seeps in over time.
00:45:09 Iain
It really does, especially.
00:45:11 Iain
Because it just helps you learn.
00:45:12 Iain
I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.
00:45:15 Merrily
Oh yeah.
00:45:17 Iain
You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.
00:45:23 Iain
So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.
00:45:28 Merrily
Right.
00:45:30 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:34 Iain
But it's just to learn passively, just to.
00:45:37 Iain
Mostly tarot, yeah.
00:45:39 Merrily
Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.
00:45:43 Iain
Exactly. No, I know all.
00:45:43 Merrily
Happening, yeah.
00:45:45 Iain
The numbered you know exactly, yeah.
00:45:48 Iain
Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.
00:45:50 Iain
That's the sort of.
00:45:51 Iain
Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.
00:46:00 Iain
That very well accepts A demonic one as well.
00:46:03 Iain
They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.
00:46:07 Merrily
So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.
00:46:10 Iain
Jump. Jump around.
00:46:12 Merrily
Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.
00:46:27 Merrily
In certain systems.
00:46:29 Merrily
Like, how do you?
00:46:31 Merrily
How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?
00:46:43 Iain
As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.
00:46:55 Merrily
Right.
00:46:59 Iain
The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.
00:47:11 Iain
Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.
00:47:14 Iain
Angels right in the middle and.
00:47:15 Iain
Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.
00:47:19 Iain
Sort of as our higher self as they say.
00:47:24 Iain
As far as you know, personal.
00:47:27 Iain
Experiences with my own.
00:47:31 Iain
Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.
00:47:39 Iain
And I think it's just.
00:47:41 Iain
The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.
00:47:49
Right, yes.
00:47:56 Iain
It's the. It's what, people.
00:47:58 Iain
I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.
00:47:59 Iain
Hear as well, which is you know.
00:48:02 Iain
That's kind of.
00:48:02 Iain
It you know, but that's why that's why you.
00:48:04 Iain
Need to do it.
00:48:05 Iain
Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.
00:48:25 Iain
Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.
00:48:29 Merrily
Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.
00:48:35 Merrily
Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.
00:48:40 Merrily
Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.
00:49:01 Merrily
Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.
00:49:08
Good luck.
00:49:10
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:14 Merrily
Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.
00:49:24 Merrily
Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.
00:49:28 Merrily
Yeah, because you need to parse out.
00:49:32 Merrily
The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.
00:49:39 Merrily
Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.
00:49:44 Iain
Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.
00:49:51 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:52 Iain
Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.
00:49:57 Iain
Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.
00:50:02 Iain
The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.
00:50:08 Iain
Like that method.
00:50:09 Merrily
I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.
00:50:13 Merrily
In her practice.
00:50:13 Iain
And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.
00:50:16 Merrily
Oh, fraud rocker does.
00:50:17 Iain
To you, they're links too.
00:50:19 Merrily
I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.
00:50:23 Merrily
Something like that.
00:50:24 Iain
Yeah, they work together, yeah.
00:50:25 Iain
Something like that, yeah.
00:50:28 Merrily
Well, cool. Let's see, I have.
00:50:32 Merrily
OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.
00:50:46 Merrily
There my question.
00:50:48 Iain
Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.
00:50:52 Iain
I found that they are.
00:50:55 Iain
Used to usually break someone out of what's.
00:50:59 Iain
I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.
00:51:10 Iain
Sort of.
00:51:11 Iain
Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.
00:51:21 Iain
In it but he.
00:51:23 Iain
He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.
00:51:34 Iain
Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.
00:51:54 Iain
Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.
00:52:06 Iain
Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.
00:52:25 Iain
Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.
00:52:32 Merrily
MM.
00:52:45 Iain
Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.
00:52:54 Iain
Up and.
00:52:55 Iain
Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.
00:53:05 Iain
I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.
00:53:13 Iain
You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.
00:53:16 Iain
Go up, up.
00:53:17 Iain
Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.
00:53:19 Iain
They you.
00:53:20 Iain
Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.
00:53:22 Iain
Can imagine you.
00:53:23 Iain
Know. Imagine it's just on on.
00:53:24 Iain
The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.
00:53:32 Iain
Above to it.
00:53:33 Iain
Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.
00:53:41 Iain
So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.
00:54:02 Iain
So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.
00:54:13 Iain
It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.
00:54:16 Merrily
Right.
00:54:33 Iain
You know, often you find it to be the most.
00:54:36 Iain
The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.
00:54:49 Iain
It can it.
00:54:49 Iain
Can it even just?
00:54:50 Iain
Be something like movies as well.
00:54:52 Iain
Or any pop culture. A lot of you.
00:54:54 Iain
Know that's why art.
00:54:56 Iain
Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.
00:55:06 Merrily
Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.
00:55:12 Merrily
Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.
00:55:26 Merrily
American boy of a certain tribe, you.
00:55:28 Merrily
Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?
00:55:33 Merrily
Few days or whatever.
00:55:34 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:35 Merrily
And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.
00:55:46 Merrily
Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.
00:56:06 Merrily
That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.
00:56:15 Merrily
Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.
00:56:28
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:31 Iain
Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.
00:56:40 Iain
This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.
00:57:01 Iain
Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.
00:57:11 Merrily
Right.
00:57:12 Iain
You know, so I think it's a big part of what?
00:57:15 Iain
Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.
00:57:23 Iain
The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.
00:57:35 Merrily
Right.
00:57:36 Iain
And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.
00:57:41 Iain
Most like most.
00:57:42 Iain
Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.
00:57:46 Iain
Of it, they've been.
00:57:47 Iain
Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.
00:57:52 Merrily
I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.
00:58:13 Merrily
Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.
00:58:23 Merrily
Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.
00:58:35 Merrily
To kind of figure it.
00:58:35 Merrily
Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.
00:58:43 Iain
Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.
00:58:49 Iain
I want to share.
00:58:51 Iain
You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.
00:58:56
Right.
00:58:57 Iain
You know it's.
00:59:01 Iain
It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.
00:59:13 Iain
As a loose.
00:59:13 Iain
Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.
00:59:15 Merrily
Right.
00:59:21 Iain
I'm going.
00:59:21 Iain
Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.
00:59:24 Iain
Bit you know it's.
00:59:25 Iain
Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.
00:59:31 Iain
Books and stuff.
00:59:32 Iain
It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.
00:59:35 Iain
Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.
00:59:37 Merrily
Over there now. Me too. Yeah.
00:59:40 Iain
I will falter.
00:59:41 Iain
And working on it.
00:59:43 Merrily
Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?
00:59:49 Iain
Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.
00:59:51 Merrily
It here you drew on.
00:59:53 Iain
In my cash box is the four.
00:59:56 Iain
Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.
00:59:57 Merrily
Oh, nice.
01:00:16 Iain
Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.
01:00:23 Iain
It, you know, obviously on Thursday.
01:00:25
You know that.
01:00:25 Merrily
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
01:00:27 Iain
The success stories.
01:00:29 Iain
Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.
01:00:31 Merrily
I know.
01:00:31 Iain
Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.
01:00:43 Merrily
Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.
01:00:46 Merrily
Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.
01:00:50 Iain
Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.
01:00:53 Iain
I got. I thought I'd be happy.
01:00:55 Iain
With hard to like.
01:00:56 Iain
No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.
01:00:59 Iain
They're so great to hold.
01:01:00 Iain
Oh, I can't help it.
01:01:02 Merrily
I love that Jupiter energy.
01:01:04 Merrily
That did this book impact your magical practice?
01:01:08 Iain
I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.
01:01:13
You know.
01:01:15 Iain
Yeah, it hasn't really.
01:01:18 Iain
It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.
01:01:24 Iain
When it just sort of helps loosen.
01:01:26 Iain
The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.
01:01:34 Iain
Evidence like that will fairy shoe.
01:01:38 Iain
Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.
01:01:43 Iain
Chew on that, yeah.
01:01:44
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:46 Iain
Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?
01:01:52 Iain
Middle of nowhere.
01:01:53 Iain
Yeah, you know, it's.
01:01:54 Iain
Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.
01:02:03 Iain
Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.
01:02:03
That's right.
01:02:06 Iain
Found you know, off the beaten path, you.
01:02:08 Iain
Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?
01:02:10 Iain
And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.
01:02:20 Iain
Of it in.
01:02:21 Iain
The book, you know. So it's just like.
01:02:22 Iain
Explain that you know. And so that's.
01:02:25 Iain
And and you can't and that's sort.
01:02:27 Iain
Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.
01:02:30 Iain
Crop circles and so.
01:02:33 Iain
For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.
01:02:39 Iain
Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.
01:02:46 Iain
Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.
01:03:07 Iain
As far as his conclusions about how.
01:03:12 Iain
I'm not sure you know.
01:03:13 Iain
Like it, I don't know.
01:03:15 Merrily
If I agree.
01:03:16 Iain
With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.
01:03:30 Iain
I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.
01:03:35 Iain
But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.
01:03:54 Iain
Ultimately all these.
01:03:56 Iain
You know all the events he gives in the.
01:03:58 Iain
Book, you know, happen to one person.
01:04:00 Iain
Most of the time you.
01:04:01 Merrily
Right.
01:04:01 Iain
Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.
01:04:14 Iain
Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.
01:04:26 Iain
Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.
01:04:45 Merrily
Right.
01:04:46 Iain
That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.
01:05:02 Merrily
Right.
01:05:04 Iain
Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.
01:05:14 Iain
Them, you know like.
01:05:15 Iain
It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.
01:05:24 Iain
Underneath the.
01:05:25 Merrily
Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.
01:05:45 Merrily
But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.
01:05:54 Iain
Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.
01:06:10 Iain
Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.
01:06:20 Iain
Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.
01:06:31 Iain
But that's.
01:06:33 Iain
An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.
01:06:43 Iain
Personal and then.
01:06:44 Iain
A bit more believable at the.
01:06:45 Iain
Same time and so.
01:06:48 Iain
That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.
01:06:55 Iain
Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.
01:07:09 Iain
I feel it.
01:07:10 Iain
I feel like I.
01:07:11 Iain
Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.
01:07:14 Iain
Have had.
01:07:15 Iain
Very dreamlike nature to.
01:07:18 Merrily
Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.
01:07:19 Merrily
Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.
01:07:24 Iain
Oh I.
01:07:25 Iain
I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.
01:07:28 Iain
Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.
01:07:29 Merrily
No, you were great. No, you're great.
01:07:33 Merrily
So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.
01:07:47 Merrily
That you've been enjoying lately, that.
01:07:48 Merrily
You'd like to share?
01:07:52 Iain
Well, I'm just. I'm the.
01:07:53 Iain
Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.
01:07:58 Iain
That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.
01:08:10 Iain
World you experience.
01:08:11 Iain
And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?
01:08:18 Iain
Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.
01:08:32 Iain
Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.
01:08:52 Iain
You know, especially as a society will get.
01:08:55 Iain
It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.
01:09:12 Iain
Gospel of meditation.
01:09:14 Iain
That's it.
01:09:15 Iain
It's meditate. Learn silence.
01:09:20 Iain
Know where you are.
01:09:23 Iain
Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.
01:09:44 Iain
It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.
01:09:55 Iain
You know, just knowing.
01:09:57 Iain
Where you are.
01:09:59 Iain
Be aligned to the directions and just.
01:10:04 Iain
And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.
01:10:07
That's just fine.
01:10:08 Iain
Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.
01:10:18 Iain
You know.
01:10:19 Iain
Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.
01:10:24 Merrily
Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.
01:10:35 Merrily
Of blew my mind a little.
01:10:35 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:37 Iain
That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.
01:10:39 Iain
Cause it's like why did?
01:10:39 Iain
I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.
01:10:43 Iain
That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.
01:10:44 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:49 Iain
Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.
01:10:54 Iain
Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.
01:11:14 Iain
Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.
01:11:31 Iain
Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.
01:11:34 Merrily
Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.
01:11:40 Iain
That sounds.
01:11:41 Merrily
Cells, yeah.
01:11:44 Merrily
So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?
01:11:53 Iain
Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.
01:12:04 Iain
King Rainbow 8.
01:12:06 Iain
All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.
01:12:22 Merrily
Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.
01:12:37
Yeah, yeah, I.
01:12:38 Iain
Appreciate that. Thank you.
01:12:40
Thank you.
01:12:44 Merrily
That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.
01:12:54 Merrily
Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.
01:Transcript
00:00:00 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.
00:00:08 Iain
Our lives and it's.
00:00:10 Iain
Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.
00:00:18 Iain
Know but and.
00:00:20 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.
00:00:25 Merrily
Right.
00:00:41 Merrily
This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.
00:00:56 Merrily
Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.
00:00:59 Merrily
Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.
00:01:20 Merrily
Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.
00:01:40 Merrily
Look, without the dust cover.
00:01:43 Merrily
Cause none of us.
00:01:43 Merrily
Like that.
00:01:44 Iain
I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.
00:01:47 Iain
I should grab it actually.
00:01:49 Merrily
If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.
00:02:02 Merrily
To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.
00:02:11 Merrily
Tuning just so you know.
00:02:11 Iain
I know no. What is?
00:02:12 Iain
Up with that every I.
00:02:13 Iain
Forgot about it. You know, when I.
00:02:15 Iain
Reread it this.
00:02:15 Iain
Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.
00:02:23 Iain
They had this.
00:02:24 Iain
Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.
00:02:29 Merrily
I looked into it.
00:02:31 Iain
Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?
00:02:34 Merrily
Right. I mean, no, it's I.
00:02:35 Iain
The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.
00:02:35 Merrily
Mean it's.
00:02:39 Iain
Know it's to you.
00:02:40 Merrily
I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.
00:02:41
OK.
00:02:43 Iain
Oh yes.
00:02:44 Merrily
Say it's.
00:02:45 Iain
This is primarily makes sense.
00:02:47 Merrily
Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.
00:02:54 Merrily
Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.
00:03:13 Merrily
By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.
00:03:31 Merrily
Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.
00:03:43 Iain
OK.
00:03:51 Merrily
Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.
00:04:05 Merrily
Them. There it is.
00:04:09 Merrily
So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.
00:04:16 Merrily
On the book.
00:04:17 Iain
Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.
00:04:28 Iain
To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.
00:04:37 Iain
We were in the when that foolish 5th server.
00:04:40 Iain
It was recommended then and.
00:04:43 Iain
The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.
00:04:51 Iain
Able to accept.
00:04:52 Iain
Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.
00:05:04 Iain
Funds we've all grown up and.
00:05:06 Iain
Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.
00:05:26 Iain
A lot of these.
00:05:27 Iain
Events are just direct taunts to them.
00:05:29 Iain
Reflex and getting over it.
00:05:33 Iain
Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.
00:05:44 Iain
System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.
00:06:04 Iain
I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.
00:06:13 Iain
You know, day-to-day or something.
00:06:15 Iain
Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.
00:06:32 Iain
Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.
00:06:39 Merrily
Right.
00:06:40 Iain
You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.
00:06:55 Iain
I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.
00:06:57 Iain
It When it happens and then.
00:06:59 Iain
You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.
00:07:19 Iain
Versus the more you know, Diane.
00:07:25 Iain
Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.
00:07:44 Iain
That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.
00:07:50 Iain
Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.
00:07:57 Iain
Experience it.
00:07:59 Iain
With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.
00:08:03 Iain
The second time around.
00:08:04 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.
00:08:26 Iain
Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.
00:08:31 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:42 Iain
I don't get the.
00:08:45 Iain
You know, as far as direct experiences?
00:08:47 Iain
You know what?
00:08:48 Iain
Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.
00:09:04 Iain
And we'll.
00:09:05 Iain
Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.
00:09:10 Merrily
Right.
00:09:25 Iain
You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.
00:09:37
OK.
00:09:40 Iain
I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.
00:09:45
Right.
00:10:01 Iain
You know, like I keep waiting you.
00:10:02 Iain
Know for the holy.
00:10:02 Iain
Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.
00:10:03 Merrily
Right.
00:10:05 Iain
You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.
00:10:20 Iain
Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.
00:10:24 Iain
Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.
00:10:31 Merrily
OK.
00:10:35 Iain
And so it's been a bit more of a.
00:10:39 Iain
Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.
00:10:52 Merrily
Right.
00:10:54 Iain
You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.
00:11:11 Iain
If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.
00:11:15 Iain
What you could?
00:11:16 Iain
Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.
00:11:23 Iain
Triangle you know and it's.
00:11:25 Iain
It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.
00:11:27 Merrily
Right.
00:11:32 Iain
Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.
00:11:42 Iain
As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.
00:11:52 Iain
Can practice.
00:11:55
And that's the.
00:11:55 Iain
Challenge about Trump against that elevator.
00:11:58 Merrily
Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.
00:12:06 Merrily
In your house, right?
00:12:08 Iain
Yeah, there you go.
00:12:10 Iain
Yeah, I mean.
00:12:10 Iain
I could. Yeah, I could do.
00:12:12 Iain
It outside. I've got some space.
00:12:13 Iain
I could imagine.
00:12:14 Iain
Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.
00:12:21 Iain
Yeah, but it's also intimidating.
00:12:23 Merrily
Yes. Yeah, it's a little.
00:12:24 Merrily
Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.
00:12:26 Iain
Yeah, yeah, but I need to.
00:12:30 Iain
It sounds exciting.
00:12:30 Merrily
So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.
00:12:40 Iain
Yes. Yeah.
00:12:43 Merrily
Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?
00:12:50
To share, yeah.
00:12:53 Iain
Yeah. So.
00:12:55 Iain
I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?
00:13:14 Iain
It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.
00:13:27 Iain
Learned this.
00:13:27 Iain
Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.
00:13:30 Iain
It but yeah so.
00:13:32 Iain
The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.
00:13:38 Iain
Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.
00:13:59 Iain
It's this.
00:14:00 Iain
It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.
00:14:12 Iain
Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.
00:14:20 Iain
Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.
00:14:28 Iain
It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.
00:14:33 Merrily
Right.
00:14:43 Iain
These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.
00:14:47 Iain
Even shelter they you know, it's.
00:14:51 Iain
It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.
00:15:08 Iain
In the.
00:15:10 Iain
In the collective unconscious.
00:15:13 Iain
It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.
00:15:27 Merrily
Yeah, I.
00:15:28 Iain
It's very hard to define.
00:15:30 Merrily
It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.
00:15:39 Merrily
To put things.
00:15:40 Merrily
In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.
00:15:44 Merrily
Like I gotta. I gotta.
00:15:44
And now we.
00:15:44 Iain
Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.
00:15:48 Merrily
It's super hard.
00:15:49 Merrily
So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.
00:15:55 Merrily
Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.
00:16:14 Merrily
And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.
00:16:31 Merrily
But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?
00:16:39 Merrily
Is that what that's going into?
00:16:41 Iain
Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.
00:16:52 Iain
Is with words and.
00:16:53 Iain
You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.
00:16:59 Iain
Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.
00:17:07 Iain
And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.
00:17:27 Iain
You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.
00:17:40 Iain
Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.
00:17:59 Iain
Or you know.
00:18:00 Iain
Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.
00:18:12 Iain
You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.
00:18:16 Iain
Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.
00:18:20 Iain
But not at the same time you know both with.
00:18:23 Iain
And without form.
00:18:25 Merrily
Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.
00:18:33 Merrily
It that's cool.
00:18:33 Iain
Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.
00:18:47 Iain
This sort of.
00:18:49 Iain
Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.
00:18:56 Iain
A very good.
00:18:57 Iain
His material is very good to work with as.
00:18:59 Iain
Well, in accompaniment.
00:19:00 Iain
With us, yeah.
00:19:02 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.
00:19:12 Merrily
That series.
00:19:12 Iain
40 heretics, yeah.
00:19:12 Merrily
Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.
00:19:14 Merrily
Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?
00:19:32 Iain
Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.
00:19:46 Iain
Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.
00:19:55
If I was.
00:19:56 Iain
At a time, you know, when I was driving.
00:19:59 Iain
You could be just driving past a A.
00:20:01 Iain
Street, you know.
00:20:01 Iain
At night you just pass a.
00:20:03 Iain
Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.
00:20:07 Iain
You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.
00:20:12 Iain
'S real to you?
00:20:13 Iain
Could be just a plastic bag.
00:20:17 Iain
Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.
00:20:24 Iain
Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.
00:20:28 Iain
Telling people about it.
00:20:30 Iain
Then that's real to a bunch of.
00:20:31 Iain
Other people too.
00:20:32 Iain
So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.
00:20:36 Iain
Telephone. Basically where?
00:20:37 Iain
Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.
00:20:42 Iain
For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.
00:20:50 Iain
Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.
00:20:51 Merrily
Right.
00:21:03 Iain
Demonic reality.
00:21:05 Iain
Is just being able to.
00:21:07 Iain
Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.
00:21:20 Iain
You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.
00:21:37 Iain
You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.
00:21:53 Iain
You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.
00:21:59 Iain
And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.
00:22:18 Merrily
That's right.
00:22:18 Iain
Aspect which we can.
00:22:19 Iain
All relate to.
00:22:22 Iain
You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.
00:22:24 Iain
Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.
00:22:44 Iain
Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.
00:22:48 Iain
Where these events?
00:22:49 Iain
Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.
00:22:59 Iain
They'll get the.
00:23:01 Iain
Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.
00:23:07 Iain
About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.
00:23:11 Iain
On in that and.
00:23:12 Iain
You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?
00:23:16 Merrily
Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.
00:23:26 Iain
Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.
00:23:46 Iain
That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.
00:23:52 Iain
You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.
00:24:00 Iain
Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.
00:24:09 Iain
Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.
00:24:18 Iain
Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.
00:24:24 Iain
These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.
00:24:29 Iain
Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.
00:24:34 Merrily
Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.
00:24:45 Merrily
Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.
00:24:51 Merrily
Somebody talked about.
00:24:52 Merrily
His Gray abduction.
00:24:54 Merrily
Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.
00:25:14 Merrily
The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.
00:25:22 Iain
Yeah, I saw interstellar.
00:25:26 Merrily
That movie.
00:25:29 Merrily
But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.
00:25:33 Merrily
Our fears, right, but that.
00:25:35 Merrily
We're going to become some sort of weird.
00:25:37 Merrily
Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.
00:25:41 Iain
Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.
00:25:57 Iain
Of follows the between what?
00:26:01 Iain
First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.
00:26:15 Iain
Of is is, is.
00:26:16 Iain
Out of.
00:26:17 Iain
Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.
00:26:20 Iain
From below, they now come from above.
00:26:23 Iain
So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.
00:26:25 Iain
From next.
00:26:27 Merrily
Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.
00:26:37 Merrily
At large.
00:26:37 Iain
I was thinking that.
00:26:38 Merrily
Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.
00:26:43 Merrily
And so we're probably hearing more around.
00:26:47 Merrily
Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.
00:26:55 Iain
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.
00:26:59 Iain
Alex is what's letting us all do it.
00:27:01 Iain
Really. Is this this new?
00:27:02 Merrily
That's true.
00:27:05 Iain
This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.
00:27:09 Iain
Opening up some minds and.
00:27:11 Iain
Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.
00:27:14 Merrily
So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.
00:27:32 Iain
You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.
00:27:39 Iain
Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?
00:27:50 Iain
And sane. And you know in.
00:27:53 Iain
This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.
00:28:00 Iain
You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.
00:28:09 Merrily
Yep. Like Nope.
00:28:19 Iain
That there is one.
00:28:20 Merrily
Right.
00:28:21 Iain
It's kind of, you know, like.
00:28:21 Iain
Even if I can't think of it, it's like.
00:28:23 Iain
Well, it's probably swamp.
00:28:23 Iain
Gas Cause swamp gas this.
00:28:26 Iain
Is a thing.
00:28:27 Iain
You know that if you swap gas.
00:28:30 Iain
You know like.
00:28:31 Iain
Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.
00:28:35 Iain
As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.
00:28:59 Iain
Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.
00:28:59 Merrily
Right.
00:29:05 Iain
I found that interesting.
00:29:05 Iain
As well.
00:29:06 Iain
Yeah, but.
00:29:07 Merrily
So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.
00:29:17 Merrily
Story of her.
00:29:19 Merrily
Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.
00:29:21 Merrily
And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.
00:29:37 Merrily
Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.
00:29:41 Merrily
1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.
00:29:47 Merrily
And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.
00:29:57 Iain
She knew, right?
00:29:58 Merrily
And then yes and.
00:29:59 Merrily
Then so she had to go with like a.
00:30:01 Merrily
Pile like of.
00:30:02 Merrily
Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.
00:30:06 Merrily
Into that forest.
00:30:08 Iain
Ohh man.
00:30:08 Merrily
To like get.
00:30:09 Merrily
To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.
00:30:13 Merrily
Apparently, according to my mom.
00:30:14 Iain
Very tense relations, yeah.
00:30:17 Merrily
Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.
00:30:37 Merrily
As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?
00:30:45 Merrily
Like oh so.
00:30:45 Merrily
Naive and so like ohh they just.
00:30:48 Merrily
Not cool, yeah.
00:30:50 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.
00:31:02 Iain
You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.
00:31:09 Iain
You know but and.
00:31:10 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.
00:31:16
Right.
00:31:21 Iain
The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.
00:31:30 Iain
Or whatever if we.
00:31:33 Iain
If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.
00:31:44 Iain
Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.
00:32:02 Iain
Existing more on the astral plane.
00:32:05 Iain
In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.
00:32:25 Iain
As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.
00:32:38 Iain
With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.
00:32:47 Iain
A lot of change.
00:32:48 Iain
As we sort of have a more.
00:32:51 Iain
As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.
00:32:57 Iain
I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.
00:33:12 Iain
Trying to find our way.
00:33:14 Merrily
Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.
00:33:23 Merrily
I never considered.
00:33:23 Iain
I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.
00:33:24
That, yeah.
00:33:30 Iain
Out of me, that's fun.
00:33:30 Merrily
No, I followed it. It was great.
00:33:32 Merrily
Now I'm going to have to chew.
00:33:33 Merrily
On that too.
00:33:36 Merrily
Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.
00:33:45 Merrily
It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.
00:33:47 Iain
Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.
00:33:50 Iain
And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.
00:33:57 Iain
All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.
00:34:00 Iain
They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.
00:34:20 Iain
Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.
00:34:23 Iain
Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.
00:34:32 Iain
All seem to come out.
00:34:33 Iain
You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.
00:34:39
Right.
00:34:43 Iain
That these events come from something that we all are.
00:34:46 Iain
Connected to you know.
00:34:48 Iain
These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.
00:35:08 Iain
You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.
00:35:18 Iain
Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?
00:35:25 Merrily
Right.
00:35:29 Iain
That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.
00:35:33 Iain
They happen, but I think.
00:35:35 Iain
Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.
00:35:40 Merrily
That's true.
00:35:55 Iain
I'm kind of like.
00:35:57 Iain
It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?
00:36:00 Iain
Distract us from.
00:36:01 Iain
Right now, with these stories, it's just.
00:36:03 Iain
Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.
00:36:05 Iain
But it's like because.
00:36:08 Iain
So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.
00:36:13 Iain
But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.
00:36:21 Iain
Military footage and stuff and.
00:36:26 Iain
You know, I I.
00:36:27 Iain
Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.
00:36:32 Merrily
Right.
00:36:34 Iain
But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.
00:36:46 Merrily
Right.
00:36:47 Iain
Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.
00:36:51 Iain
It's it's it's a direct it.
00:36:53 Iain
Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.
00:36:56 Iain
I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.
00:37:07 Iain
You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.
00:37:13 Iain
Did those happen?
00:37:15 Iain
They're perfect, you know.
00:37:16 Iain
The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.
00:37:21 Iain
Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.
00:37:36 Iain
Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.
00:37:56 Iain
To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.
00:38:00 Iain
With and it's like.
00:38:02 Iain
Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.
00:38:11 Iain
Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.
00:38:28 Iain
As possible fiction.
00:38:31 Iain
And that's where it's sort of going to stay.
00:38:36 Iain
I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.
00:38:49 Iain
Newborn he he swiped he.
00:38:52 Iain
Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.
00:38:56 Iain
Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.
00:39:03 Merrily
That's right.
00:39:04 Iain
Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.
00:39:10 Iain
It's a taunt.
00:39:12 Iain
You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.
00:39:31
The other one.
00:39:33 Merrily
Yeah, I can see the diagram.
00:39:35 Iain
Yeah, where links.
00:39:37 Iain
All the phenomena.
00:39:38 Iain
It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.
00:39:50 Iain
And it sort of links them across a continuum.
00:39:53 Iain
That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.
00:39:57 Iain
Context basically for them to all being.
00:40:01 Iain
It's he does give a nice.
00:40:03 Iain
Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.
00:40:06 Iain
And that's kind of what I like in that.
00:40:09 Iain
You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.
00:40:19 Iain
What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.
00:40:21 Merrily
Right.
00:40:26 Iain
Hermes, you know of a.
00:40:28 Iain
A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.
00:40:34 Iain
But but we will also be able to forget.
00:40:38 Iain
That fact and just.
00:40:39 Iain
Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.
00:40:41 Iain
Accepting both those realities.
00:40:43 Iain
Is is so.
00:40:46 Iain
I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.
00:40:58 Iain
Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.
00:41:02 Iain
Where you allow for.
00:41:04 Iain
Crazy things, but.
00:41:07 Iain
Live in a rational world.
00:41:08 Merrily
Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.
00:41:21 Iain
Exactly, yeah.
00:41:23 Iain
He's he's a baby. He was a baby.
00:41:25 Iain
At this time, he had.
00:41:25 Merrily
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27 Iain
He had. It was pure.
00:41:28 Iain
Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.
00:41:34 Iain
Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.
00:41:37 Merrily
Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.
00:41:43 Merrily
Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.
00:42:04 Merrily
And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.
00:42:11 Merrily
Have to do you believe somebody's story or?
00:42:13 Merrily
Do you not, you know, like?
00:42:17 Merrily
It's kind of like that.
00:42:18 Iain
Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.
00:42:36 Merrily
That's right.
00:42:39 Iain
Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.
00:42:59 Iain
Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.
00:43:03 Iain
Of both worlds.
00:43:04 Merrily
Right.
00:43:05 Iain
And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.
00:43:16 Iain
Very helpful for me in my own.
00:43:18 Iain
Life, I must say, yeah.
00:43:21 Merrily
So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.
00:43:42
Of these.
00:43:43 Merrily
Understandings. But how do you square?
00:43:46 Merrily
Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.
00:43:57 Iain
I love it you.
00:43:58 Iain
Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.
00:43:58
I yeah.
00:44:05 Iain
You know all of the.
00:44:08 Iain
It's really satisfying, yeah.
00:44:11 Merrily
So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.
00:44:17 Merrily
Because I don't want to fall into.
00:44:18 Merrily
This trap of like.
00:44:21 Merrily
Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.
00:44:24 Merrily
Kabbalah, right?
00:44:25 Iain
I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.
00:44:33 Merrily
Oh, OK.
00:44:36 Merrily
Got you.
00:44:47 Iain
Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.
00:44:50 Merrily
Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.
00:44:54 Iain
Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.
00:44:56 Iain
You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.
00:44:59 Iain
The pads, yeah.
00:45:00 Merrily
List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.
00:45:06 Iain
Yeah, it seeps in over time.
00:45:09 Iain
It really does, especially.
00:45:11 Iain
Because it just helps you learn.
00:45:12 Iain
I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.
00:45:15 Merrily
Oh yeah.
00:45:17 Iain
You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.
00:45:23 Iain
So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.
00:45:28 Merrily
Right.
00:45:30 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:34 Iain
But it's just to learn passively, just to.
00:45:37 Iain
Mostly tarot, yeah.
00:45:39 Merrily
Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.
00:45:43 Iain
Exactly. No, I know all.
00:45:43 Merrily
Happening, yeah.
00:45:45 Iain
The numbered you know exactly, yeah.
00:45:48 Iain
Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.
00:45:50 Iain
That's the sort of.
00:45:51 Iain
Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.
00:46:00 Iain
That very well accepts A demonic one as well.
00:46:03 Iain
They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.
00:46:07 Merrily
So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.
00:46:10 Iain
Jump. Jump around.
00:46:12 Merrily
Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.
00:46:27 Merrily
In certain systems.
00:46:29 Merrily
Like, how do you?
00:46:31 Merrily
How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?
00:46:43 Iain
As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.
00:46:55 Merrily
Right.
00:46:59 Iain
The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.
00:47:11 Iain
Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.
00:47:14 Iain
Angels right in the middle and.
00:47:15 Iain
Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.
00:47:19 Iain
Sort of as our higher self as they say.
00:47:24 Iain
As far as you know, personal.
00:47:27 Iain
Experiences with my own.
00:47:31 Iain
Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.
00:47:39 Iain
And I think it's just.
00:47:41 Iain
The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.
00:47:49
Right, yes.
00:47:56 Iain
It's the. It's what, people.
00:47:58 Iain
I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.
00:47:59 Iain
Hear as well, which is you know.
00:48:02 Iain
That's kind of.
00:48:02 Iain
It you know, but that's why that's why you.
00:48:04 Iain
Need to do it.
00:48:05 Iain
Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.
00:48:25 Iain
Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.
00:48:29 Merrily
Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.
00:48:35 Merrily
Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.
00:48:40 Merrily
Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.
00:49:01 Merrily
Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.
00:49:08
Good luck.
00:49:10
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:14 Merrily
Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.
00:49:24 Merrily
Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.
00:49:28 Merrily
Yeah, because you need to parse out.
00:49:32 Merrily
The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.
00:49:39 Merrily
Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.
00:49:44 Iain
Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.
00:49:51 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:52 Iain
Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.
00:49:57 Iain
Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.
00:50:02 Iain
The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.
00:50:08 Iain
Like that method.
00:50:09 Merrily
I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.
00:50:13 Merrily
In her practice.
00:50:13 Iain
And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.
00:50:16 Merrily
Oh, fraud rocker does.
00:50:17 Iain
To you, they're links too.
00:50:19 Merrily
I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.
00:50:23 Merrily
Something like that.
00:50:24 Iain
Yeah, they work together, yeah.
00:50:25 Iain
Something like that, yeah.
00:50:28 Merrily
Well, cool. Let's see, I have.
00:50:32 Merrily
OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.
00:50:46 Merrily
There my question.
00:50:48 Iain
Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.
00:50:52 Iain
I found that they are.
00:50:55 Iain
Used to usually break someone out of what's.
00:50:59 Iain
I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.
00:51:10 Iain
Sort of.
00:51:11 Iain
Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.
00:51:21 Iain
In it but he.
00:51:23 Iain
He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.
00:51:34 Iain
Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.
00:51:54 Iain
Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.
00:52:06 Iain
Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.
00:52:25 Iain
Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.
00:52:32 Merrily
MM.
00:52:45 Iain
Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.
00:52:54 Iain
Up and.
00:52:55 Iain
Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.
00:53:05 Iain
I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.
00:53:13 Iain
You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.
00:53:16 Iain
Go up, up.
00:53:17 Iain
Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.
00:53:19 Iain
They you.
00:53:20 Iain
Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.
00:53:22 Iain
Can imagine you.
00:53:23 Iain
Know. Imagine it's just on on.
00:53:24 Iain
The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.
00:53:32 Iain
Above to it.
00:53:33 Iain
Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.
00:53:41 Iain
So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.
00:54:02 Iain
So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.
00:54:13 Iain
It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.
00:54:16 Merrily
Right.
00:54:33 Iain
You know, often you find it to be the most.
00:54:36 Iain
The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.
00:54:49 Iain
It can it.
00:54:49 Iain
Can it even just?
00:54:50 Iain
Be something like movies as well.
00:54:52 Iain
Or any pop culture. A lot of you.
00:54:54 Iain
Know that's why art.
00:54:56 Iain
Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.
00:55:06 Merrily
Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.
00:55:12 Merrily
Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.
00:55:26 Merrily
American boy of a certain tribe, you.
00:55:28 Merrily
Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?
00:55:33 Merrily
Few days or whatever.
00:55:34 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:35 Merrily
And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.
00:55:46 Merrily
Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.
00:56:06 Merrily
That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.
00:56:15 Merrily
Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.
00:56:28
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:31 Iain
Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.
00:56:40 Iain
This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.
00:57:01 Iain
Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.
00:57:11 Merrily
Right.
00:57:12 Iain
You know, so I think it's a big part of what?
00:57:15 Iain
Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.
00:57:23 Iain
The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.
00:57:35 Merrily
Right.
00:57:36 Iain
And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.
00:57:41 Iain
Most like most.
00:57:42 Iain
Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.
00:57:46 Iain
Of it, they've been.
00:57:47 Iain
Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.
00:57:52 Merrily
I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.
00:58:13 Merrily
Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.
00:58:23 Merrily
Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.
00:58:35 Merrily
To kind of figure it.
00:58:35 Merrily
Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.
00:58:43 Iain
Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.
00:58:49 Iain
I want to share.
00:58:51 Iain
You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.
00:58:56
Right.
00:58:57 Iain
You know it's.
00:59:01 Iain
It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.
00:59:13 Iain
As a loose.
00:59:13 Iain
Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.
00:59:15 Merrily
Right.
00:59:21 Iain
I'm going.
00:59:21 Iain
Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.
00:59:24 Iain
Bit you know it's.
00:59:25 Iain
Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.
00:59:31 Iain
Books and stuff.
00:59:32 Iain
It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.
00:59:35 Iain
Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.
00:59:37 Merrily
Over there now. Me too. Yeah.
00:59:40 Iain
I will falter.
00:59:41 Iain
And working on it.
00:59:43 Merrily
Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?
00:59:49 Iain
Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.
00:59:51 Merrily
It here you drew on.
00:59:53 Iain
In my cash box is the four.
00:59:56 Iain
Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.
00:59:57 Merrily
Oh, nice.
01:00:16 Iain
Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.
01:00:23 Iain
It, you know, obviously on Thursday.
01:00:25
You know that.
01:00:25 Merrily
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
01:00:27 Iain
The success stories.
01:00:29 Iain
Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.
01:00:31 Merrily
I know.
01:00:31 Iain
Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.
01:00:43 Merrily
Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.
01:00:46 Merrily
Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.
01:00:50 Iain
Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.
01:00:53 Iain
I got. I thought I'd be happy.
01:00:55 Iain
With hard to like.
01:00:56 Iain
No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.
01:00:59 Iain
They're so great to hold.
01:01:00 Iain
Oh, I can't help it.
01:01:02 Merrily
I love that Jupiter energy.
01:01:04 Merrily
That did this book impact your magical practice?
01:01:08 Iain
I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.
01:01:13
You know.
01:01:15 Iain
Yeah, it hasn't really.
01:01:18 Iain
It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.
01:01:24 Iain
When it just sort of helps loosen.
01:01:26 Iain
The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.
01:01:34 Iain
Evidence like that will fairy shoe.
01:01:38 Iain
Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.
01:01:43 Iain
Chew on that, yeah.
01:01:44
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:46 Iain
Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?
01:01:52 Iain
Middle of nowhere.
01:01:53 Iain
Yeah, you know, it's.
01:01:54 Iain
Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.
01:02:03 Iain
Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.
01:02:03
That's right.
01:02:06 Iain
Found you know, off the beaten path, you.
01:02:08 Iain
Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?
01:02:10 Iain
And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.
01:02:20 Iain
Of it in.
01:02:21 Iain
The book, you know. So it's just like.
01:02:22 Iain
Explain that you know. And so that's.
01:02:25 Iain
And and you can't and that's sort.
01:02:27 Iain
Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.
01:02:30 Iain
Crop circles and so.
01:02:33 Iain
For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.
01:02:39 Iain
Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.
01:02:46 Iain
Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.
01:03:07 Iain
As far as his conclusions about how.
01:03:12 Iain
I'm not sure you know.
01:03:13 Iain
Like it, I don't know.
01:03:15 Merrily
If I agree.
01:03:16 Iain
With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.
01:03:30 Iain
I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.
01:03:35 Iain
But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.
01:03:54 Iain
Ultimately all these.
01:03:56 Iain
You know all the events he gives in the.
01:03:58 Iain
Book, you know, happen to one person.
01:04:00 Iain
Most of the time you.
01:04:01 Merrily
Right.
01:04:01 Iain
Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.
01:04:14 Iain
Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.
01:04:26 Iain
Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.
01:04:45 Merrily
Right.
01:04:46 Iain
That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.
01:05:02 Merrily
Right.
01:05:04 Iain
Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.
01:05:14 Iain
Them, you know like.
01:05:15 Iain
It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.
01:05:24 Iain
Underneath the.
01:05:25 Merrily
Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.
01:05:45 Merrily
But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.
01:05:54 Iain
Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.
01:06:10 Iain
Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.
01:06:20 Iain
Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.
01:06:31 Iain
But that's.
01:06:33 Iain
An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.
01:06:43 Iain
Personal and then.
01:06:44 Iain
A bit more believable at the.
01:06:45 Iain
Same time and so.
01:06:48 Iain
That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.
01:06:55 Iain
Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.
01:07:09 Iain
I feel it.
01:07:10 Iain
I feel like I.
01:07:11 Iain
Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.
01:07:14 Iain
Have had.
01:07:15 Iain
Very dreamlike nature to.
01:07:18 Merrily
Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.
01:07:19 Merrily
Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.
01:07:24 Iain
Oh I.
01:07:25 Iain
I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.
01:07:28 Iain
Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.
01:07:29 Merrily
No, you were great. No, you're great.
01:07:33 Merrily
So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.
01:07:47 Merrily
That you've been enjoying lately, that.
01:07:48 Merrily
You'd like to share?
01:07:52 Iain
Well, I'm just. I'm the.
01:07:53 Iain
Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.
01:07:58 Iain
That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.
01:08:10 Iain
World you experience.
01:08:11 Iain
And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?
01:08:18 Iain
Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.
01:08:32 Iain
Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.
01:08:52 Iain
You know, especially as a society will get.
01:08:55 Iain
It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.
01:09:12 Iain
Gospel of meditation.
01:09:14 Iain
That's it.
01:09:15 Iain
It's meditate. Learn silence.
01:09:20 Iain
Know where you are.
01:09:23 Iain
Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.
01:09:44 Iain
It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.
01:09:55 Iain
You know, just knowing.
01:09:57 Iain
Where you are.
01:09:59 Iain
Be aligned to the directions and just.
01:10:04 Iain
And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.
01:10:07
That's just fine.
01:10:08 Iain
Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.
01:10:18 Iain
You know.
01:10:19 Iain
Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.
01:10:24 Merrily
Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.
01:10:35 Merrily
Of blew my mind a little.
01:10:35 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:37 Iain
That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.
01:10:39 Iain
Cause it's like why did?
01:10:39 Iain
I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.
01:10:43 Iain
That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.
01:10:44 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:49 Iain
Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.
01:10:54 Iain
Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.
01:11:14 Iain
Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.
01:11:31 Iain
Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.
01:11:34 Merrily
Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.
01:11:40 Iain
That sounds.
01:11:41 Merrily
Cells, yeah.
01:11:44 Merrily
So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?
01:11:53 Iain
Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.
01:12:04 Iain
King Rainbow 8.
01:12:06 Iain
All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.
01:12:22 Merrily
Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.
01:12:37
Yeah, yeah, I.
01:12:38 Iain
Appreciate that. Thank you.
01:12:40
Thank you.
01:12:44 Merrily
That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.
01:12:54 Merrily
Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.
01:13:04 Merrily
Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.
01:13:16 Merrily
Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Tempo podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.
udio file
EP07_Casual Temple_Iain Shelley_2023-09-12.mp3
Transcript
00:00:00 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.
00:00:08 Iain
Our lives and it's.
00:00:10 Iain
Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.
00:00:18 Iain
Know but and.
00:00:20 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.
00:00:25 Merrily
Right.
00:00:41 Merrily
This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.
00:00:56 Merrily
Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.
00:00:59 Merrily
Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.
00:01:20 Merrily
Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.
00:01:40 Merrily
Look, without the dust cover.
00:01:43 Merrily
Cause none of us.
00:01:43 Merrily
Like that.
00:01:44 Iain
I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.
00:01:47 Iain
I should grab it actually.
00:01:49 Merrily
If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.
00:02:02 Merrily
To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.
00:02:11 Merrily
Tuning just so you know.
00:02:11 Iain
I know no. What is?
00:02:12 Iain
Up with that every I.
00:02:13 Iain
Forgot about it. You know, when I.
00:02:15 Iain
Reread it this.
00:02:15 Iain
Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.
00:02:23 Iain
They had this.
00:02:24 Iain
Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.
00:02:29 Merrily
I looked into it.
00:02:31 Iain
Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?
00:02:34 Merrily
Right. I mean, no, it's I.
00:02:35 Iain
The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.
00:02:35 Merrily
Mean it's.
00:02:39 Iain
Know it's to you.
00:02:40 Merrily
I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.
00:02:41
OK.
00:02:43 Iain
Oh yes.
00:02:44 Merrily
Say it's.
00:02:45 Iain
This is primarily makes sense.
00:02:47 Merrily
Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.
00:02:54 Merrily
Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.
00:03:13 Merrily
By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.
00:03:31 Merrily
Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.
00:03:43 Iain
OK.
00:03:51 Merrily
Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.
00:04:05 Merrily
Them. There it is.
00:04:09 Merrily
So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.
00:04:16 Merrily
On the book.
00:04:17 Iain
Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.
00:04:28 Iain
To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.
00:04:37 Iain
We were in the when that foolish 5th server.
00:04:40 Iain
It was recommended then and.
00:04:43 Iain
The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.
00:04:51 Iain
Able to accept.
00:04:52 Iain
Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.
00:05:04 Iain
Funds we've all grown up and.
00:05:06 Iain
Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.
00:05:26 Iain
A lot of these.
00:05:27 Iain
Events are just direct taunts to them.
00:05:29 Iain
Reflex and getting over it.
00:05:33 Iain
Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.
00:05:44 Iain
System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.
00:06:04 Iain
I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.
00:06:13 Iain
You know, day-to-day or something.
00:06:15 Iain
Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.
00:06:32 Iain
Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.
00:06:39 Merrily
Right.
00:06:40 Iain
You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.
00:06:55 Iain
I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.
00:06:57 Iain
It When it happens and then.
00:06:59 Iain
You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.
00:07:19 Iain
Versus the more you know, Diane.
00:07:25 Iain
Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.
00:07:44 Iain
That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.
00:07:50 Iain
Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.
00:07:57 Iain
Experience it.
00:07:59 Iain
With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.
00:08:03 Iain
The second time around.
00:08:04 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.
00:08:26 Iain
Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.
00:08:31 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:42 Iain
I don't get the.
00:08:45 Iain
You know, as far as direct experiences?
00:08:47 Iain
You know what?
00:08:48 Iain
Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.
00:09:04 Iain
And we'll.
00:09:05 Iain
Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.
00:09:10 Merrily
Right.
00:09:25 Iain
You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.
00:09:37
OK.
00:09:40 Iain
I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.
00:09:45
Right.
00:10:01 Iain
You know, like I keep waiting you.
00:10:02 Iain
Know for the holy.
00:10:02 Iain
Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.
00:10:03 Merrily
Right.
00:10:05 Iain
You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.
00:10:20 Iain
Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.
00:10:24 Iain
Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.
00:10:31 Merrily
OK.
00:10:35 Iain
And so it's been a bit more of a.
00:10:39 Iain
Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.
00:10:52 Merrily
Right.
00:10:54 Iain
You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.
00:11:11 Iain
If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.
00:11:15 Iain
What you could?
00:11:16 Iain
Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.
00:11:23 Iain
Triangle you know and it's.
00:11:25 Iain
It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.
00:11:27 Merrily
Right.
00:11:32 Iain
Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.
00:11:42 Iain
As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.
00:11:52 Iain
Can practice.
00:11:55
And that's the.
00:11:55 Iain
Challenge about Trump against that elevator.
00:11:58 Merrily
Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.
00:12:06 Merrily
In your house, right?
00:12:08 Iain
Yeah, there you go.
00:12:10 Iain
Yeah, I mean.
00:12:10 Iain
I could. Yeah, I could do.
00:12:12 Iain
It outside. I've got some space.
00:12:13 Iain
I could imagine.
00:12:14 Iain
Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.
00:12:21 Iain
Yeah, but it's also intimidating.
00:12:23 Merrily
Yes. Yeah, it's a little.
00:12:24 Merrily
Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.
00:12:26 Iain
Yeah, yeah, but I need to.
00:12:30 Iain
It sounds exciting.
00:12:30 Merrily
So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.
00:12:40 Iain
Yes. Yeah.
00:12:43 Merrily
Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?
00:12:50
To share, yeah.
00:12:53 Iain
Yeah. So.
00:12:55 Iain
I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?
00:13:14 Iain
It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.
00:13:27 Iain
Learned this.
00:13:27 Iain
Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.
00:13:30 Iain
It but yeah so.
00:13:32 Iain
The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.
00:13:38 Iain
Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.
00:13:59 Iain
It's this.
00:14:00 Iain
It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.
00:14:12 Iain
Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.
00:14:20 Iain
Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.
00:14:28 Iain
It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.
00:14:33 Merrily
Right.
00:14:43 Iain
These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.
00:14:47 Iain
Even shelter they you know, it's.
00:14:51 Iain
It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.
00:15:08 Iain
In the.
00:15:10 Iain
In the collective unconscious.
00:15:13 Iain
It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.
00:15:27 Merrily
Yeah, I.
00:15:28 Iain
It's very hard to define.
00:15:30 Merrily
It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.
00:15:39 Merrily
To put things.
00:15:40 Merrily
In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.
00:15:44 Merrily
Like I gotta. I gotta.
00:15:44
And now we.
00:15:44 Iain
Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.
00:15:48 Merrily
It's super hard.
00:15:49 Merrily
So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.
00:15:55 Merrily
Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.
00:16:14 Merrily
And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.
00:16:31 Merrily
But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?
00:16:39 Merrily
Is that what that's going into?
00:16:41 Iain
Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.
00:16:52 Iain
Is with words and.
00:16:53 Iain
You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.
00:16:59 Iain
Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.
00:17:07 Iain
And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.
00:17:27 Iain
You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.
00:17:40 Iain
Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.
00:17:59 Iain
Or you know.
00:18:00 Iain
Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.
00:18:12 Iain
You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.
00:18:16 Iain
Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.
00:18:20 Iain
But not at the same time you know both with.
00:18:23 Iain
And without form.
00:18:25 Merrily
Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.
00:18:33 Merrily
It that's cool.
00:18:33 Iain
Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.
00:18:47 Iain
This sort of.
00:18:49 Iain
Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.
00:18:56 Iain
A very good.
00:18:57 Iain
His material is very good to work with as.
00:18:59 Iain
Well, in accompaniment.
00:19:00 Iain
With us, yeah.
00:19:02 Merrily
Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.
00:19:12 Merrily
That series.
00:19:12 Iain
40 heretics, yeah.
00:19:12 Merrily
Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.
00:19:14 Merrily
Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?
00:19:32 Iain
Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.
00:19:46 Iain
Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.
00:19:55
If I was.
00:19:56 Iain
At a time, you know, when I was driving.
00:19:59 Iain
You could be just driving past a A.
00:20:01 Iain
Street, you know.
00:20:01 Iain
At night you just pass a.
00:20:03 Iain
Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.
00:20:07 Iain
You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.
00:20:12 Iain
'S real to you?
00:20:13 Iain
Could be just a plastic bag.
00:20:17 Iain
Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.
00:20:24 Iain
Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.
00:20:28 Iain
Telling people about it.
00:20:30 Iain
Then that's real to a bunch of.
00:20:31 Iain
Other people too.
00:20:32 Iain
So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.
00:20:36 Iain
Telephone. Basically where?
00:20:37 Iain
Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.
00:20:42 Iain
For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.
00:20:50 Iain
Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.
00:20:51 Merrily
Right.
00:21:03 Iain
Demonic reality.
00:21:05 Iain
Is just being able to.
00:21:07 Iain
Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.
00:21:20 Iain
You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.
00:21:37 Iain
You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.
00:21:53 Iain
You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.
00:21:59 Iain
And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.
00:22:18 Merrily
That's right.
00:22:18 Iain
Aspect which we can.
00:22:19 Iain
All relate to.
00:22:22 Iain
You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.
00:22:24 Iain
Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.
00:22:44 Iain
Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.
00:22:48 Iain
Where these events?
00:22:49 Iain
Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.
00:22:59 Iain
They'll get the.
00:23:01 Iain
Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.
00:23:07 Iain
About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.
00:23:11 Iain
On in that and.
00:23:12 Iain
You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?
00:23:16 Merrily
Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.
00:23:26 Iain
Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.
00:23:46 Iain
That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.
00:23:52 Iain
You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.
00:24:00 Iain
Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.
00:24:09 Iain
Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.
00:24:18 Iain
Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.
00:24:24 Iain
These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.
00:24:29 Iain
Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.
00:24:34 Merrily
Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.
00:24:45 Merrily
Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.
00:24:51 Merrily
Somebody talked about.
00:24:52 Merrily
His Gray abduction.
00:24:54 Merrily
Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.
00:25:14 Merrily
The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.
00:25:22 Iain
Yeah, I saw interstellar.
00:25:26 Merrily
That movie.
00:25:29 Merrily
But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.
00:25:33 Merrily
Our fears, right, but that.
00:25:35 Merrily
We're going to become some sort of weird.
00:25:37 Merrily
Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.
00:25:41 Iain
Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.
00:25:57 Iain
Of follows the between what?
00:26:01 Iain
First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.
00:26:15 Iain
Of is is, is.
00:26:16 Iain
Out of.
00:26:17 Iain
Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.
00:26:20 Iain
From below, they now come from above.
00:26:23 Iain
So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.
00:26:25 Iain
From next.
00:26:27 Merrily
Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.
00:26:37 Merrily
At large.
00:26:37 Iain
I was thinking that.
00:26:38 Merrily
Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.
00:26:43 Merrily
And so we're probably hearing more around.
00:26:47 Merrily
Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.
00:26:55 Iain
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.
00:26:59 Iain
Alex is what's letting us all do it.
00:27:01 Iain
Really. Is this this new?
00:27:02 Merrily
That's true.
00:27:05 Iain
This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.
00:27:09 Iain
Opening up some minds and.
00:27:11 Iain
Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.
00:27:14 Merrily
So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.
00:27:32 Iain
You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.
00:27:39 Iain
Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?
00:27:50 Iain
And sane. And you know in.
00:27:53 Iain
This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.
00:28:00 Iain
You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.
00:28:09 Merrily
Yep. Like Nope.
00:28:19 Iain
That there is one.
00:28:20 Merrily
Right.
00:28:21 Iain
It's kind of, you know, like.
00:28:21 Iain
Even if I can't think of it, it's like.
00:28:23 Iain
Well, it's probably swamp.
00:28:23 Iain
Gas Cause swamp gas this.
00:28:26 Iain
Is a thing.
00:28:27 Iain
You know that if you swap gas.
00:28:30 Iain
You know like.
00:28:31 Iain
Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.
00:28:35 Iain
As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.
00:28:59 Iain
Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.
00:28:59 Merrily
Right.
00:29:05 Iain
I found that interesting.
00:29:05 Iain
As well.
00:29:06 Iain
Yeah, but.
00:29:07 Merrily
So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.
00:29:17 Merrily
Story of her.
00:29:19 Merrily
Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.
00:29:21 Merrily
And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.
00:29:37 Merrily
Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.
00:29:41 Merrily
1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.
00:29:47 Merrily
And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.
00:29:57 Iain
She knew, right?
00:29:58 Merrily
And then yes and.
00:29:59 Merrily
Then so she had to go with like a.
00:30:01 Merrily
Pile like of.
00:30:02 Merrily
Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.
00:30:06 Merrily
Into that forest.
00:30:08 Iain
Ohh man.
00:30:08 Merrily
To like get.
00:30:09 Merrily
To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.
00:30:13 Merrily
Apparently, according to my mom.
00:30:14 Iain
Very tense relations, yeah.
00:30:17 Merrily
Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.
00:30:37 Merrily
As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?
00:30:45 Merrily
Like oh so.
00:30:45 Merrily
Naive and so like ohh they just.
00:30:48 Merrily
Not cool, yeah.
00:30:50 Iain
Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.
00:31:02 Iain
You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.
00:31:09 Iain
You know but and.
00:31:10 Iain
As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.
00:31:16
Right.
00:31:21 Iain
The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.
00:31:30 Iain
Or whatever if we.
00:31:33 Iain
If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.
00:31:44 Iain
Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.
00:32:02 Iain
Existing more on the astral plane.
00:32:05 Iain
In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.
00:32:25 Iain
As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.
00:32:38 Iain
With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.
00:32:47 Iain
A lot of change.
00:32:48 Iain
As we sort of have a more.
00:32:51 Iain
As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.
00:32:57 Iain
I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.
00:33:12 Iain
Trying to find our way.
00:33:14 Merrily
Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.
00:33:23 Merrily
I never considered.
00:33:23 Iain
I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.
00:33:24
That, yeah.
00:33:30 Iain
Out of me, that's fun.
00:33:30 Merrily
No, I followed it. It was great.
00:33:32 Merrily
Now I'm going to have to chew.
00:33:33 Merrily
On that too.
00:33:36 Merrily
Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.
00:33:45 Merrily
It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.
00:33:47 Iain
Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.
00:33:50 Iain
And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.
00:33:57 Iain
All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.
00:34:00 Iain
They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.
00:34:20 Iain
Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.
00:34:23 Iain
Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.
00:34:32 Iain
All seem to come out.
00:34:33 Iain
You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.
00:34:39
Right.
00:34:43 Iain
That these events come from something that we all are.
00:34:46 Iain
Connected to you know.
00:34:48 Iain
These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.
00:35:08 Iain
You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.
00:35:18 Iain
Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?
00:35:25 Merrily
Right.
00:35:29 Iain
That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.
00:35:33 Iain
They happen, but I think.
00:35:35 Iain
Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.
00:35:40 Merrily
That's true.
00:35:55 Iain
I'm kind of like.
00:35:57 Iain
It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?
00:36:00 Iain
Distract us from.
00:36:01 Iain
Right now, with these stories, it's just.
00:36:03 Iain
Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.
00:36:05 Iain
But it's like because.
00:36:08 Iain
So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.
00:36:13 Iain
But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.
00:36:21 Iain
Military footage and stuff and.
00:36:26 Iain
You know, I I.
00:36:27 Iain
Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.
00:36:32 Merrily
Right.
00:36:34 Iain
But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.
00:36:46 Merrily
Right.
00:36:47 Iain
Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.
00:36:51 Iain
It's it's it's a direct it.
00:36:53 Iain
Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.
00:36:56 Iain
I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.
00:37:07 Iain
You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.
00:37:13 Iain
Did those happen?
00:37:15 Iain
They're perfect, you know.
00:37:16 Iain
The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.
00:37:21 Iain
Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.
00:37:36 Iain
Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.
00:37:56 Iain
To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.
00:38:00 Iain
With and it's like.
00:38:02 Iain
Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.
00:38:11 Iain
Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.
00:38:28 Iain
As possible fiction.
00:38:31 Iain
And that's where it's sort of going to stay.
00:38:36 Iain
I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.
00:38:49 Iain
Newborn he he swiped he.
00:38:52 Iain
Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.
00:38:56 Iain
Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.
00:39:03 Merrily
That's right.
00:39:04 Iain
Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.
00:39:10 Iain
It's a taunt.
00:39:12 Iain
You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.
00:39:31
The other one.
00:39:33 Merrily
Yeah, I can see the diagram.
00:39:35 Iain
Yeah, where links.
00:39:37 Iain
All the phenomena.
00:39:38 Iain
It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.
00:39:50 Iain
And it sort of links them across a continuum.
00:39:53 Iain
That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.
00:39:57 Iain
Context basically for them to all being.
00:40:01 Iain
It's he does give a nice.
00:40:03 Iain
Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.
00:40:06 Iain
And that's kind of what I like in that.
00:40:09 Iain
You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.
00:40:19 Iain
What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.
00:40:21 Merrily
Right.
00:40:26 Iain
Hermes, you know of a.
00:40:28 Iain
A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.
00:40:34 Iain
But but we will also be able to forget.
00:40:38 Iain
That fact and just.
00:40:39 Iain
Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.
00:40:41 Iain
Accepting both those realities.
00:40:43 Iain
Is is so.
00:40:46 Iain
I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.
00:40:58 Iain
Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.
00:41:02 Iain
Where you allow for.
00:41:04 Iain
Crazy things, but.
00:41:07 Iain
Live in a rational world.
00:41:08 Merrily
Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.
00:41:21 Iain
Exactly, yeah.
00:41:23 Iain
He's he's a baby. He was a baby.
00:41:25 Iain
At this time, he had.
00:41:25 Merrily
Yeah, exactly.
00:41:27 Iain
He had. It was pure.
00:41:28 Iain
Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.
00:41:34 Iain
Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.
00:41:37 Merrily
Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.
00:41:43 Merrily
Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.
00:42:04 Merrily
And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.
00:42:11 Merrily
Have to do you believe somebody's story or?
00:42:13 Merrily
Do you not, you know, like?
00:42:17 Merrily
It's kind of like that.
00:42:18 Iain
Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.
00:42:36 Merrily
That's right.
00:42:39 Iain
Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.
00:42:59 Iain
Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.
00:43:03 Iain
Of both worlds.
00:43:04 Merrily
Right.
00:43:05 Iain
And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.
00:43:16 Iain
Very helpful for me in my own.
00:43:18 Iain
Life, I must say, yeah.
00:43:21 Merrily
So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.
00:43:42
Of these.
00:43:43 Merrily
Understandings. But how do you square?
00:43:46 Merrily
Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.
00:43:57 Iain
I love it you.
00:43:58 Iain
Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.
00:43:58
I yeah.
00:44:05 Iain
You know all of the.
00:44:08 Iain
It's really satisfying, yeah.
00:44:11 Merrily
So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.
00:44:17 Merrily
Because I don't want to fall into.
00:44:18 Merrily
This trap of like.
00:44:21 Merrily
Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.
00:44:24 Merrily
Kabbalah, right?
00:44:25 Iain
I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.
00:44:33 Merrily
Oh, OK.
00:44:36 Merrily
Got you.
00:44:47 Iain
Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.
00:44:50 Merrily
Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.
00:44:54 Iain
Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.
00:44:56 Iain
You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.
00:44:59 Iain
The pads, yeah.
00:45:00 Merrily
List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.
00:45:06 Iain
Yeah, it seeps in over time.
00:45:09 Iain
It really does, especially.
00:45:11 Iain
Because it just helps you learn.
00:45:12 Iain
I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.
00:45:15 Merrily
Oh yeah.
00:45:17 Iain
You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.
00:45:23 Iain
So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.
00:45:28 Merrily
Right.
00:45:30 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:34 Iain
But it's just to learn passively, just to.
00:45:37 Iain
Mostly tarot, yeah.
00:45:39 Merrily
Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.
00:45:43 Iain
Exactly. No, I know all.
00:45:43 Merrily
Happening, yeah.
00:45:45 Iain
The numbered you know exactly, yeah.
00:45:48 Iain
Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.
00:45:50 Iain
That's the sort of.
00:45:51 Iain
Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.
00:46:00 Iain
That very well accepts A demonic one as well.
00:46:03 Iain
They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.
00:46:07 Merrily
So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.
00:46:10 Iain
Jump. Jump around.
00:46:12 Merrily
Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.
00:46:27 Merrily
In certain systems.
00:46:29 Merrily
Like, how do you?
00:46:31 Merrily
How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?
00:46:43 Iain
As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.
00:46:55 Merrily
Right.
00:46:59 Iain
The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.
00:47:11 Iain
Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.
00:47:14 Iain
Angels right in the middle and.
00:47:15 Iain
Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.
00:47:19 Iain
Sort of as our higher self as they say.
00:47:24 Iain
As far as you know, personal.
00:47:27 Iain
Experiences with my own.
00:47:31 Iain
Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.
00:47:39 Iain
And I think it's just.
00:47:41 Iain
The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.
00:47:49
Right, yes.
00:47:56 Iain
It's the. It's what, people.
00:47:58 Iain
I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.
00:47:59 Iain
Hear as well, which is you know.
00:48:02 Iain
That's kind of.
00:48:02 Iain
It you know, but that's why that's why you.
00:48:04 Iain
Need to do it.
00:48:05 Iain
Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.
00:48:25 Iain
Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.
00:48:29 Merrily
Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.
00:48:35 Merrily
Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.
00:48:40 Merrily
Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.
00:49:01 Merrily
Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.
00:49:08
Good luck.
00:49:10
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:14 Merrily
Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.
00:49:24 Merrily
Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.
00:49:28 Merrily
Yeah, because you need to parse out.
00:49:32 Merrily
The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.
00:49:39 Merrily
Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.
00:49:44 Iain
Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.
00:49:51 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:52 Iain
Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.
00:49:57 Iain
Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.
00:50:02 Iain
The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.
00:50:08 Iain
Like that method.
00:50:09 Merrily
I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.
00:50:13 Merrily
In her practice.
00:50:13 Iain
And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.
00:50:16 Merrily
Oh, fraud rocker does.
00:50:17 Iain
To you, they're links too.
00:50:19 Merrily
I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.
00:50:23 Merrily
Something like that.
00:50:24 Iain
Yeah, they work together, yeah.
00:50:25 Iain
Something like that, yeah.
00:50:28 Merrily
Well, cool. Let's see, I have.
00:50:32 Merrily
OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.
00:50:46 Merrily
There my question.
00:50:48 Iain
Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.
00:50:52 Iain
I found that they are.
00:50:55 Iain
Used to usually break someone out of what's.
00:50:59 Iain
I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.
00:51:10 Iain
Sort of.
00:51:11 Iain
Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.
00:51:21 Iain
In it but he.
00:51:23 Iain
He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.
00:51:34 Iain
Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.
00:51:54 Iain
Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.
00:52:06 Iain
Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.
00:52:25 Iain
Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.
00:52:32 Merrily
MM.
00:52:45 Iain
Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.
00:52:54 Iain
Up and.
00:52:55 Iain
Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.
00:53:05 Iain
I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.
00:53:13 Iain
You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.
00:53:16 Iain
Go up, up.
00:53:17 Iain
Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.
00:53:19 Iain
They you.
00:53:20 Iain
Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.
00:53:22 Iain
Can imagine you.
00:53:23 Iain
Know. Imagine it's just on on.
00:53:24 Iain
The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.
00:53:32 Iain
Above to it.
00:53:33 Iain
Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.
00:53:41 Iain
So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.
00:54:02 Iain
So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.
00:54:13 Iain
It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.
00:54:16 Merrily
Right.
00:54:33 Iain
You know, often you find it to be the most.
00:54:36 Iain
The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.
00:54:49 Iain
It can it.
00:54:49 Iain
Can it even just?
00:54:50 Iain
Be something like movies as well.
00:54:52 Iain
Or any pop culture. A lot of you.
00:54:54 Iain
Know that's why art.
00:54:56 Iain
Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.
00:55:06 Merrily
Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.
00:55:12 Merrily
Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.
00:55:26 Merrily
American boy of a certain tribe, you.
00:55:28 Merrily
Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?
00:55:33 Merrily
Few days or whatever.
00:55:34 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:35 Merrily
And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.
00:55:46 Merrily
Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.
00:56:06 Merrily
That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.
00:56:15 Merrily
Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.
00:56:28
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:31 Iain
Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.
00:56:40 Iain
This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.
00:57:01 Iain
Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.
00:57:11 Merrily
Right.
00:57:12 Iain
You know, so I think it's a big part of what?
00:57:15 Iain
Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.
00:57:23 Iain
The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.
00:57:35 Merrily
Right.
00:57:36 Iain
And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.
00:57:41 Iain
Most like most.
00:57:42 Iain
Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.
00:57:46 Iain
Of it, they've been.
00:57:47 Iain
Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.
00:57:52 Merrily
I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.
00:58:13 Merrily
Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.
00:58:23 Merrily
Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.
00:58:35 Merrily
To kind of figure it.
00:58:35 Merrily
Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.
00:58:43 Iain
Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.
00:58:49 Iain
I want to share.
00:58:51 Iain
You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.
00:58:56
Right.
00:58:57 Iain
You know it's.
00:59:01 Iain
It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.
00:59:13 Iain
As a loose.
00:59:13 Iain
Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.
00:59:15 Merrily
Right.
00:59:21 Iain
I'm going.
00:59:21 Iain
Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.
00:59:24 Iain
Bit you know it's.
00:59:25 Iain
Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.
00:59:31 Iain
Books and stuff.
00:59:32 Iain
It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.
00:59:35 Iain
Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.
00:59:37 Merrily
Over there now. Me too. Yeah.
00:59:40 Iain
I will falter.
00:59:41 Iain
And working on it.
00:59:43 Merrily
Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?
00:59:49 Iain
Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.
00:59:51 Merrily
It here you drew on.
00:59:53 Iain
In my cash box is the four.
00:59:56 Iain
Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.
00:59:57 Merrily
Oh, nice.
01:00:16 Iain
Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.
01:00:23 Iain
It, you know, obviously on Thursday.
01:00:25
You know that.
01:00:25 Merrily
Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.
01:00:27 Iain
The success stories.
01:00:29 Iain
Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.
01:00:31 Merrily
I know.
01:00:31 Iain
Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.
01:00:43 Merrily
Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.
01:00:46 Merrily
Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.
01:00:50 Iain
Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.
01:00:53 Iain
I got. I thought I'd be happy.
01:00:55 Iain
With hard to like.
01:00:56 Iain
No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.
01:00:59 Iain
They're so great to hold.
01:01:00 Iain
Oh, I can't help it.
01:01:02 Merrily
I love that Jupiter energy.
01:01:04 Merrily
That did this book impact your magical practice?
01:01:08 Iain
I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.
01:01:13
You know.
01:01:15 Iain
Yeah, it hasn't really.
01:01:18 Iain
It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.
01:01:24 Iain
When it just sort of helps loosen.
01:01:26 Iain
The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.
01:01:34 Iain
Evidence like that will fairy shoe.
01:01:38 Iain
Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.
01:01:43 Iain
Chew on that, yeah.
01:01:44
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:46 Iain
Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?
01:01:52 Iain
Middle of nowhere.
01:01:53 Iain
Yeah, you know, it's.
01:01:54 Iain
Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.
01:02:03 Iain
Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.
01:02:03
That's right.
01:02:06 Iain
Found you know, off the beaten path, you.
01:02:08 Iain
Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?
01:02:10 Iain
And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.
01:02:20 Iain
Of it in.
01:02:21 Iain
The book, you know. So it's just like.
01:02:22 Iain
Explain that you know. And so that's.
01:02:25 Iain
And and you can't and that's sort.
01:02:27 Iain
Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.
01:02:30 Iain
Crop circles and so.
01:02:33 Iain
For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.
01:02:39 Iain
Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.
01:02:46 Iain
Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.
01:03:07 Iain
As far as his conclusions about how.
01:03:12 Iain
I'm not sure you know.
01:03:13 Iain
Like it, I don't know.
01:03:15 Merrily
If I agree.
01:03:16 Iain
With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.
01:03:30 Iain
I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.
01:03:35 Iain
But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.
01:03:54 Iain
Ultimately all these.
01:03:56 Iain
You know all the events he gives in the.
01:03:58 Iain
Book, you know, happen to one person.
01:04:00 Iain
Most of the time you.
01:04:01 Merrily
Right.
01:04:01 Iain
Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.
01:04:14 Iain
Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.
01:04:26 Iain
Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.
01:04:45 Merrily
Right.
01:04:46 Iain
That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.
01:05:02 Merrily
Right.
01:05:04 Iain
Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.
01:05:14 Iain
Them, you know like.
01:05:15 Iain
It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.
01:05:24 Iain
Underneath the.
01:05:25 Merrily
Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.
01:05:45 Merrily
But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.
01:05:54 Iain
Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.
01:06:10 Iain
Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.
01:06:20 Iain
Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.
01:06:31 Iain
But that's.
01:06:33 Iain
An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.
01:06:43 Iain
Personal and then.
01:06:44 Iain
A bit more believable at the.
01:06:45 Iain
Same time and so.
01:06:48 Iain
That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.
01:06:55 Iain
Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.
01:07:09 Iain
I feel it.
01:07:10 Iain
I feel like I.
01:07:11 Iain
Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.
01:07:14 Iain
Have had.
01:07:15 Iain
Very dreamlike nature to.
01:07:18 Merrily
Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.
01:07:19 Merrily
Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.
01:07:24 Iain
Oh I.
01:07:25 Iain
I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.
01:07:28 Iain
Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.
01:07:29 Merrily
No, you were great. No, you're great.
01:07:33 Merrily
So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.
01:07:47 Merrily
That you've been enjoying lately, that.
01:07:48 Merrily
You'd like to share?
01:07:52 Iain
Well, I'm just. I'm the.
01:07:53 Iain
Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.
01:07:58 Iain
That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.
01:08:10 Iain
World you experience.
01:08:11 Iain
And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?
01:08:18 Iain
Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.
01:08:32 Iain
Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.
01:08:52 Iain
You know, especially as a society will get.
01:08:55 Iain
It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.
01:09:12 Iain
Gospel of meditation.
01:09:14 Iain
That's it.
01:09:15 Iain
It's meditate. Learn silence.
01:09:20 Iain
Know where you are.
01:09:23 Iain
Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.
01:09:44 Iain
It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.
01:09:55 Iain
You know, just knowing.
01:09:57 Iain
Where you are.
01:09:59 Iain
Be aligned to the directions and just.
01:10:04 Iain
And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.
01:10:07
That's just fine.
01:10:08 Iain
Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.
01:10:18 Iain
You know.
01:10:19 Iain
Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.
01:10:24 Merrily
Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.
01:10:35 Merrily
Of blew my mind a little.
01:10:35 Iain
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:37 Iain
That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.
01:10:39 Iain
Cause it's like why did?
01:10:39 Iain
I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.
01:10:43 Iain
That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.
01:10:44 Merrily
Yeah, yeah.
01:10:49 Iain
Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.
01:10:54 Iain
Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.
01:11:14 Iain
Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.
01:11:31 Iain
Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.
01:11:34 Merrily
Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.
01:11:40 Iain
That sounds.
01:11:41 Merrily
Cells, yeah.
01:11:44 Merrily
So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?
01:11:53 Iain
Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.
01:12:04 Iain
King Rainbow 8.
01:12:06 Iain
All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.
01:12:22 Merrily
Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.
01:12:37
Yeah, yeah, I.
01:12:38 Iain
Appreciate that. Thank you.
01:12:40
Thank you.
01:12:44 Merrily
That was the discussion of the book Daimonic Reality by Patrick Harpur with left hand magical practitioner Iain Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Iain on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.
01:12:54 Merrily
Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely. New episodes of the Casual.
01:13:04 Merrily
Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.
13:04 Merrily
Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.
01:13:16 Merrily
Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Temple podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.