Casual Temple

TRANSCRIPT

(Transcript is auto-generated; errors are unintentional.)

00:00:00 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.

00:00:08 Iain

Our lives and it's.

00:00:10 Iain

Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.

00:00:18 Iain

Know but and.

00:00:20 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.

00:00:25 Merrily

Right.

00:00:41 Merrily

This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Merrily Duffy. The Casual Temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Iain.

00:00:56 Merrily

Shelley, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Daimonic Reality.

00:00:59 Merrily

Body by Patrick Harpur, which is a book that explains Harpur's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.

00:01:20 Merrily

Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Iain Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Malkouth. Iain is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harpur, which I will hold up the.

00:01:40 Merrily

Look, without the dust cover.

00:01:43 Merrily

Cause none of us.

00:01:43 Merrily

Like that.

00:01:44 Iain

I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.

00:01:47 Iain

I should grab it actually.

00:01:49 Merrily

If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.

00:02:02 Merrily

To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.

00:02:11 Merrily

Tuning just so you know.

00:02:11 Iain

I know no. What is?

00:02:12 Iain

Up with that every I.

00:02:13 Iain

Forgot about it. You know, when I.

00:02:15 Iain

Reread it this.

00:02:15 Iain

Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.

00:02:23 Iain

They had this.

00:02:24 Iain

Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.

00:02:29 Merrily

I looked into it.

00:02:31 Iain

Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?

00:02:34 Merrily

Right. I mean, no, it's I.

00:02:35 Iain

The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.

00:02:35 Merrily

Mean it's.

00:02:39 Iain

Know it's to you.

00:02:40 Merrily

I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.

00:02:41

OK.

00:02:43 Iain

Oh yes.

00:02:44 Merrily

Say it's.

00:02:45 Iain

This is primarily makes sense.

00:02:47 Merrily

Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.

00:02:54 Merrily

Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.

00:03:13 Merrily

By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.

00:03:31 Merrily

Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.

00:03:43 Iain

OK.

00:03:51 Merrily

Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.

00:04:05 Merrily

Them. There it is.

00:04:09 Merrily

So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.

00:04:16 Merrily

On the book.

00:04:17 Iain

Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.

00:04:28 Iain

To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.

00:04:37 Iain

We were in the when that foolish 5th server.

00:04:40 Iain

It was recommended then and.

00:04:43 Iain

The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.

00:04:51 Iain

Able to accept.

00:04:52 Iain

Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.

00:05:04 Iain

Funds we've all grown up and.

00:05:06 Iain

Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.

00:05:26 Iain

A lot of these.

00:05:27 Iain

Events are just direct taunts to them.

00:05:29 Iain

Reflex and getting over it.

00:05:33 Iain

Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.

00:05:44 Iain

System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.

00:06:04 Iain

I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.

00:06:13 Iain

You know, day-to-day or something.

00:06:15 Iain

Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.

00:06:32 Iain

Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.

00:06:39 Merrily

Right.

00:06:40 Iain

You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.

00:06:55 Iain

I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.

00:06:57 Iain

It When it happens and then.

00:06:59 Iain

You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.

00:07:19 Iain

Versus the more you know, Diane.

00:07:25 Iain

Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.

00:07:44 Iain

That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.

00:07:50 Iain

Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.

00:07:57 Iain

Experience it.

00:07:59 Iain

With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.

00:08:03 Iain

The second time around.

00:08:04 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.

00:08:26 Iain

Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.

00:08:31 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:08:42 Iain

I don't get the.

00:08:45 Iain

You know, as far as direct experiences?

00:08:47 Iain

You know what?

00:08:48 Iain

Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.

00:09:04 Iain

And we'll.

00:09:05 Iain

Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.

00:09:10 Merrily

Right.

00:09:25 Iain

You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.

00:09:37

OK.

00:09:40 Iain

I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.

00:09:45

Right.

00:10:01 Iain

You know, like I keep waiting you.

00:10:02 Iain

Know for the holy.

00:10:02 Iain

Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.

00:10:03 Merrily

Right.

00:10:05 Iain

You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.

00:10:20 Iain

Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.

00:10:24 Iain

Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.

00:10:31 Merrily

OK.

00:10:35 Iain

And so it's been a bit more of a.

00:10:39 Iain

Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.

00:10:52 Merrily

Right.

00:10:54 Iain

You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.

00:11:11 Iain

If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.

00:11:15 Iain

What you could?

00:11:16 Iain

Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.

00:11:23 Iain

Triangle you know and it's.

00:11:25 Iain

It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.

00:11:27 Merrily

Right.

00:11:32 Iain

Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.

00:11:42 Iain

As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.

00:11:52 Iain

Can practice.

00:11:55

And that's the.

00:11:55 Iain

Challenge about Trump against that elevator.

00:11:58 Merrily

Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.

00:12:06 Merrily

In your house, right?

00:12:08 Iain

Yeah, there you go.

00:12:10 Iain

Yeah, I mean.

00:12:10 Iain

I could. Yeah, I could do.

00:12:12 Iain

It outside. I've got some space.

00:12:13 Iain

I could imagine.

00:12:14 Iain

Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.

00:12:21 Iain

Yeah, but it's also intimidating.

00:12:23 Merrily

Yes. Yeah, it's a little.

00:12:24 Merrily

Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.

00:12:26 Iain

Yeah, yeah, but I need to.

00:12:30 Iain

It sounds exciting.

00:12:30 Merrily

So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.

00:12:40 Iain

Yes. Yeah.

00:12:43 Merrily

Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?

00:12:50

To share, yeah.

00:12:53 Iain

Yeah. So.

00:12:55 Iain

I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?

00:13:14 Iain

It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.

00:13:27 Iain

Learned this.

00:13:27 Iain

Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.

00:13:30 Iain

It but yeah so.

00:13:32 Iain

The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.

00:13:38 Iain

Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.

00:13:59 Iain

It's this.

00:14:00 Iain

It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.

00:14:12 Iain

Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.

00:14:20 Iain

Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.

00:14:28 Iain

It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.

00:14:33 Merrily

Right.

00:14:43 Iain

These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.

00:14:47 Iain

Even shelter they you know, it's.

00:14:51 Iain

It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.

00:15:08 Iain

In the.

00:15:10 Iain

In the collective unconscious.

00:15:13 Iain

It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.

00:15:27 Merrily

Yeah, I.

00:15:28 Iain

It's very hard to define.

00:15:30 Merrily

It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.

00:15:39 Merrily

To put things.

00:15:40 Merrily

In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.

00:15:44 Merrily

Like I gotta. I gotta.

00:15:44

And now we.

00:15:44 Iain

Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.

00:15:48 Merrily

It's super hard.

00:15:49 Merrily

So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.

00:15:55 Merrily

Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.

00:16:14 Merrily

And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.

00:16:31 Merrily

But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?

00:16:39 Merrily

Is that what that's going into?

00:16:41 Iain

Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.

00:16:52 Iain

Is with words and.

00:16:53 Iain

You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.

00:16:59 Iain

Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.

00:17:07 Iain

And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.

00:17:27 Iain

You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.

00:17:40 Iain

Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.

00:17:59 Iain

Or you know.

00:18:00 Iain

Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.

00:18:12 Iain

You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.

00:18:16 Iain

Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.

00:18:20 Iain

But not at the same time you know both with.

00:18:23 Iain

And without form.

00:18:25 Merrily

Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.

00:18:33 Merrily

It that's cool.

00:18:33 Iain

Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.

00:18:47 Iain

This sort of.

00:18:49 Iain

Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.

00:18:56 Iain

A very good.

00:18:57 Iain

His material is very good to work with as.

00:18:59 Iain

Well, in accompaniment.

00:19:00 Iain

With us, yeah.

00:19:02 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.

00:19:12 Merrily

That series.

00:19:12 Iain

40 heretics, yeah.

00:19:12 Merrily

Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.

00:19:14 Merrily

Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?

00:19:32 Iain

Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.

00:19:46 Iain

Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.

00:19:55

If I was.

00:19:56 Iain

At a time, you know, when I was driving.

00:19:59 Iain

You could be just driving past a A.

00:20:01 Iain

Street, you know.

00:20:01 Iain

At night you just pass a.

00:20:03 Iain

Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.

00:20:07 Iain

You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.

00:20:12 Iain

'S real to you?

00:20:13 Iain

Could be just a plastic bag.

00:20:17 Iain

Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.

00:20:24 Iain

Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.

00:20:28 Iain

Telling people about it.

00:20:30 Iain

Then that's real to a bunch of.

00:20:31 Iain

Other people too.

00:20:32 Iain

So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.

00:20:36 Iain

Telephone. Basically where?

00:20:37 Iain

Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.

00:20:42 Iain

For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.

00:20:50 Iain

Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.

00:20:51 Merrily

Right.

00:21:03 Iain

Demonic reality.

00:21:05 Iain

Is just being able to.

00:21:07 Iain

Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.

00:21:20 Iain

You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.

00:21:37 Iain

You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.

00:21:53 Iain

You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.

00:21:59 Iain

And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.

00:22:18 Merrily

That's right.

00:22:18 Iain

Aspect which we can.

00:22:19 Iain

All relate to.

00:22:22 Iain

You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.

00:22:24 Iain

Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.

00:22:44 Iain

Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.

00:22:48 Iain

Where these events?

00:22:49 Iain

Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.

00:22:59 Iain

They'll get the.

00:23:01 Iain

Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.

00:23:07 Iain

About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.

00:23:11 Iain

On in that and.

00:23:12 Iain

You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?

00:23:16 Merrily

Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.

00:23:26 Iain

Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.

00:23:46 Iain

That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.

00:23:52 Iain

You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.

00:24:00 Iain

Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.

00:24:09 Iain

Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.

00:24:18 Iain

Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.

00:24:24 Iain

These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.

00:24:29 Iain

Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.

00:24:34 Merrily

Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.

00:24:45 Merrily

Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.

00:24:51 Merrily

Somebody talked about.

00:24:52 Merrily

His Gray abduction.

00:24:54 Merrily

Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.

00:25:14 Merrily

The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.

00:25:22 Iain

Yeah, I saw interstellar.

00:25:26 Merrily

That movie.

00:25:29 Merrily

But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.

00:25:33 Merrily

Our fears, right, but that.

00:25:35 Merrily

We're going to become some sort of weird.

00:25:37 Merrily

Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.

00:25:41 Iain

Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.

00:25:57 Iain

Of follows the between what?

00:26:01 Iain

First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.

00:26:15 Iain

Of is is, is.

00:26:16 Iain

Out of.

00:26:17 Iain

Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.

00:26:20 Iain

From below, they now come from above.

00:26:23 Iain

So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.

00:26:25 Iain

From next.

00:26:27 Merrily

Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.

00:26:37 Merrily

At large.

00:26:37 Iain

I was thinking that.

00:26:38 Merrily

Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.

00:26:43 Merrily

And so we're probably hearing more around.

00:26:47 Merrily

Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.

00:26:55 Iain

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.

00:26:59 Iain

Alex is what's letting us all do it.

00:27:01 Iain

Really. Is this this new?

00:27:02 Merrily

That's true.

00:27:05 Iain

This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.

00:27:09 Iain

Opening up some minds and.

00:27:11 Iain

Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.

00:27:14 Merrily

So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.

00:27:32 Iain

You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.

00:27:39 Iain

Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?

00:27:50 Iain

And sane. And you know in.

00:27:53 Iain

This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.

00:28:00 Iain

You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.

00:28:09 Merrily

Yep. Like Nope.

00:28:19 Iain

That there is one.

00:28:20 Merrily

Right.

00:28:21 Iain

It's kind of, you know, like.

00:28:21 Iain

Even if I can't think of it, it's like.

00:28:23 Iain

Well, it's probably swamp.

00:28:23 Iain

Gas Cause swamp gas this.

00:28:26 Iain

Is a thing.

00:28:27 Iain

You know that if you swap gas.

00:28:30 Iain

You know like.

00:28:31 Iain

Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.

00:28:35 Iain

As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.

00:28:59 Iain

Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.

00:28:59 Merrily

Right.

00:29:05 Iain

I found that interesting.

00:29:05 Iain

As well.

00:29:06 Iain

Yeah, but.

00:29:07 Merrily

So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.

00:29:17 Merrily

Story of her.

00:29:19 Merrily

Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.

00:29:21 Merrily

And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.

00:29:37 Merrily

Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.

00:29:41 Merrily

1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.

00:29:47 Merrily

And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.

00:29:57 Iain

She knew, right?

00:29:58 Merrily

And then yes and.

00:29:59 Merrily

Then so she had to go with like a.

00:30:01 Merrily

Pile like of.

00:30:02 Merrily

Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.

00:30:06 Merrily

Into that forest.

00:30:08 Iain

Ohh man.

00:30:08 Merrily

To like get.

00:30:09 Merrily

To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.

00:30:13 Merrily

Apparently, according to my mom.

00:30:14 Iain

Very tense relations, yeah.

00:30:17 Merrily

Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.

00:30:37 Merrily

As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?

00:30:45 Merrily

Like oh so.

00:30:45 Merrily

Naive and so like ohh they just.

00:30:48 Merrily

Not cool, yeah.

00:30:50 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.

00:31:02 Iain

You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.

00:31:09 Iain

You know but and.

00:31:10 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.

00:31:16

Right.

00:31:21 Iain

The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.

00:31:30 Iain

Or whatever if we.

00:31:33 Iain

If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.

00:31:44 Iain

Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.

00:32:02 Iain

Existing more on the astral plane.

00:32:05 Iain

In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.

00:32:25 Iain

As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.

00:32:38 Iain

With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.

00:32:47 Iain

A lot of change.

00:32:48 Iain

As we sort of have a more.

00:32:51 Iain

As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.

00:32:57 Iain

I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.

00:33:12 Iain

Trying to find our way.

00:33:14 Merrily

Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.

00:33:23 Merrily

I never considered.

00:33:23 Iain

I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.

00:33:24

That, yeah.

00:33:30 Iain

Out of me, that's fun.

00:33:30 Merrily

No, I followed it. It was great.

00:33:32 Merrily

Now I'm going to have to chew.

00:33:33 Merrily

On that too.

00:33:36 Merrily

Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.

00:33:45 Merrily

It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.

00:33:47 Iain

Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.

00:33:50 Iain

And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.

00:33:57 Iain

All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.

00:34:00 Iain

They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.

00:34:20 Iain

Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.

00:34:23 Iain

Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.

00:34:32 Iain

All seem to come out.

00:34:33 Iain

You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.

00:34:39

Right.

00:34:43 Iain

That these events come from something that we all are.

00:34:46 Iain

Connected to you know.

00:34:48 Iain

These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.

00:35:08 Iain

You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.

00:35:18 Iain

Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?

00:35:25 Merrily

Right.

00:35:29 Iain

That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.

00:35:33 Iain

They happen, but I think.

00:35:35 Iain

Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.

00:35:40 Merrily

That's true.

00:35:55 Iain

I'm kind of like.

00:35:57 Iain

It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?

00:36:00 Iain

Distract us from.

00:36:01 Iain

Right now, with these stories, it's just.

00:36:03 Iain

Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.

00:36:05 Iain

But it's like because.

00:36:08 Iain

So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.

00:36:13 Iain

But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.

00:36:21 Iain

Military footage and stuff and.

00:36:26 Iain

You know, I I.

00:36:27 Iain

Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.

00:36:32 Merrily

Right.

00:36:34 Iain

But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.

00:36:46 Merrily

Right.

00:36:47 Iain

Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.

00:36:51 Iain

It's it's it's a direct it.

00:36:53 Iain

Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.

00:36:56 Iain

I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.

00:37:07 Iain

You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.

00:37:13 Iain

Did those happen?

00:37:15 Iain

They're perfect, you know.

00:37:16 Iain

The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.

00:37:21 Iain

Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.

00:37:36 Iain

Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.

00:37:56 Iain

To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.

00:38:00 Iain

With and it's like.

00:38:02 Iain

Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.

00:38:11 Iain

Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.

00:38:28 Iain

As possible fiction.

00:38:31 Iain

And that's where it's sort of going to stay.

00:38:36 Iain

I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.

00:38:49 Iain

Newborn he he swiped he.

00:38:52 Iain

Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.

00:38:56 Iain

Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.

00:39:03 Merrily

That's right.

00:39:04 Iain

Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.

00:39:10 Iain

It's a taunt.

00:39:12 Iain

You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.

00:39:31

The other one.

00:39:33 Merrily

Yeah, I can see the diagram.

00:39:35 Iain

Yeah, where links.

00:39:37 Iain

All the phenomena.

00:39:38 Iain

It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.

00:39:50 Iain

And it sort of links them across a continuum.

00:39:53 Iain

That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.

00:39:57 Iain

Context basically for them to all being.

00:40:01 Iain

It's he does give a nice.

00:40:03 Iain

Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.

00:40:06 Iain

And that's kind of what I like in that.

00:40:09 Iain

You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.

00:40:19 Iain

What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.

00:40:21 Merrily

Right.

00:40:26 Iain

Hermes, you know of a.

00:40:28 Iain

A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.

00:40:34 Iain

But but we will also be able to forget.

00:40:38 Iain

That fact and just.

00:40:39 Iain

Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.

00:40:41 Iain

Accepting both those realities.

00:40:43 Iain

Is is so.

00:40:46 Iain

I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.

00:40:58 Iain

Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.

00:41:02 Iain

Where you allow for.

00:41:04 Iain

Crazy things, but.

00:41:07 Iain

Live in a rational world.

00:41:08 Merrily

Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.

00:41:21 Iain

Exactly, yeah.

00:41:23 Iain

He's he's a baby. He was a baby.

00:41:25 Iain

At this time, he had.

00:41:25 Merrily

Yeah, exactly.

00:41:27 Iain

He had. It was pure.

00:41:28 Iain

Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.

00:41:34 Iain

Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.

00:41:37 Merrily

Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.

00:41:43 Merrily

Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.

00:42:04 Merrily

And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.

00:42:11 Merrily

Have to do you believe somebody's story or?

00:42:13 Merrily

Do you not, you know, like?

00:42:17 Merrily

It's kind of like that.

00:42:18 Iain

Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.

00:42:36 Merrily

That's right.

00:42:39 Iain

Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.

00:42:59 Iain

Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.

00:43:03 Iain

Of both worlds.

00:43:04 Merrily

Right.

00:43:05 Iain

And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.

00:43:16 Iain

Very helpful for me in my own.

00:43:18 Iain

Life, I must say, yeah.

00:43:21 Merrily

So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.

00:43:42

Of these.

00:43:43 Merrily

Understandings. But how do you square?

00:43:46 Merrily

Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.

00:43:57 Iain

I love it you.

00:43:58 Iain

Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.

00:43:58

I yeah.

00:44:05 Iain

You know all of the.

00:44:08 Iain

It's really satisfying, yeah.

00:44:11 Merrily

So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.

00:44:17 Merrily

Because I don't want to fall into.

00:44:18 Merrily

This trap of like.

00:44:21 Merrily

Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.

00:44:24 Merrily

Kabbalah, right?

00:44:25 Iain

I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.

00:44:33 Merrily

Oh, OK.

00:44:36 Merrily

Got you.

00:44:47 Iain

Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.

00:44:50 Merrily

Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.

00:44:54 Iain

Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.

00:44:56 Iain

You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.

00:44:59 Iain

The pads, yeah.

00:45:00 Merrily

List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.

00:45:06 Iain

Yeah, it seeps in over time.

00:45:09 Iain

It really does, especially.

00:45:11 Iain

Because it just helps you learn.

00:45:12 Iain

I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.

00:45:15 Merrily

Oh yeah.

00:45:17 Iain

You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.

00:45:23 Iain

So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.

00:45:28 Merrily

Right.

00:45:30 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:34 Iain

But it's just to learn passively, just to.

00:45:37 Iain

Mostly tarot, yeah.

00:45:39 Merrily

Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.

00:45:43 Iain

Exactly. No, I know all.

00:45:43 Merrily

Happening, yeah.

00:45:45 Iain

The numbered you know exactly, yeah.

00:45:48 Iain

Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.

00:45:50 Iain

That's the sort of.

00:45:51 Iain

Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.

00:46:00 Iain

That very well accepts A demonic one as well.

00:46:03 Iain

They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.

00:46:07 Merrily

So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.

00:46:10 Iain

Jump. Jump around.

00:46:12 Merrily

Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.

00:46:27 Merrily

In certain systems.

00:46:29 Merrily

Like, how do you?

00:46:31 Merrily

How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?

00:46:43 Iain

As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.

00:46:55 Merrily

Right.

00:46:59 Iain

The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.

00:47:11 Iain

Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.

00:47:14 Iain

Angels right in the middle and.

00:47:15 Iain

Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.

00:47:19 Iain

Sort of as our higher self as they say.

00:47:24 Iain

As far as you know, personal.

00:47:27 Iain

Experiences with my own.

00:47:31 Iain

Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.

00:47:39 Iain

And I think it's just.

00:47:41 Iain

The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.

00:47:49

Right, yes.

00:47:56 Iain

It's the. It's what, people.

00:47:58 Iain

I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.

00:47:59 Iain

Hear as well, which is you know.

00:48:02 Iain

That's kind of.

00:48:02 Iain

It you know, but that's why that's why you.

00:48:04 Iain

Need to do it.

00:48:05 Iain

Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.

00:48:25 Iain

Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.

00:48:29 Merrily

Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.

00:48:35 Merrily

Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.

00:48:40 Merrily

Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.

00:49:01 Merrily

Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.

00:49:08

Good luck.

00:49:10

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:14 Merrily

Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.

00:49:24 Merrily

Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.

00:49:28 Merrily

Yeah, because you need to parse out.

00:49:32 Merrily

The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.

00:49:39 Merrily

Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.

00:49:44 Iain

Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.

00:49:51 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:52 Iain

Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.

00:49:57 Iain

Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.

00:50:02 Iain

The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.

00:50:08 Iain

Like that method.

00:50:09 Merrily

I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.

00:50:13 Merrily

In her practice.

00:50:13 Iain

And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.

00:50:16 Merrily

Oh, fraud rocker does.

00:50:17 Iain

To you, they're links too.

00:50:19 Merrily

I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.

00:50:23 Merrily

Something like that.

00:50:24 Iain

Yeah, they work together, yeah.

00:50:25 Iain

Something like that, yeah.

00:50:28 Merrily

Well, cool. Let's see, I have.

00:50:32 Merrily

OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.

00:50:46 Merrily

There my question.

00:50:48 Iain

Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.

00:50:52 Iain

I found that they are.

00:50:55 Iain

Used to usually break someone out of what's.

00:50:59 Iain

I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.

00:51:10 Iain

Sort of.

00:51:11 Iain

Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.

00:51:21 Iain

In it but he.

00:51:23 Iain

He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.

00:51:34 Iain

Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.

00:51:54 Iain

Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.

00:52:06 Iain

Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.

00:52:25 Iain

Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.

00:52:32 Merrily

MM.

00:52:45 Iain

Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.

00:52:54 Iain

Up and.

00:52:55 Iain

Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.

00:53:05 Iain

I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.

00:53:13 Iain

You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.

00:53:16 Iain

Go up, up.

00:53:17 Iain

Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.

00:53:19 Iain

They you.

00:53:20 Iain

Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.

00:53:22 Iain

Can imagine you.

00:53:23 Iain

Know. Imagine it's just on on.

00:53:24 Iain

The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.

00:53:32 Iain

Above to it.

00:53:33 Iain

Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.

00:53:41 Iain

So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.

00:54:02 Iain

So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.

00:54:13 Iain

It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.

00:54:16 Merrily

Right.

00:54:33 Iain

You know, often you find it to be the most.

00:54:36 Iain

The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.

00:54:49 Iain

It can it.

00:54:49 Iain

Can it even just?

00:54:50 Iain

Be something like movies as well.

00:54:52 Iain

Or any pop culture. A lot of you.

00:54:54 Iain

Know that's why art.

00:54:56 Iain

Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.

00:55:06 Merrily

Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.

00:55:12 Merrily

Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.

00:55:26 Merrily

American boy of a certain tribe, you.

00:55:28 Merrily

Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?

00:55:33 Merrily

Few days or whatever.

00:55:34 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

00:55:35 Merrily

And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.

00:55:46 Merrily

Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.

00:56:06 Merrily

That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.

00:56:15 Merrily

Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.

00:56:28

Yeah, yeah.

00:56:31 Iain

Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.

00:56:40 Iain

This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.

00:57:01 Iain

Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.

00:57:11 Merrily

Right.

00:57:12 Iain

You know, so I think it's a big part of what?

00:57:15 Iain

Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.

00:57:23 Iain

The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.

00:57:35 Merrily

Right.

00:57:36 Iain

And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.

00:57:41 Iain

Most like most.

00:57:42 Iain

Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.

00:57:46 Iain

Of it, they've been.

00:57:47 Iain

Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.

00:57:52 Merrily

I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.

00:58:13 Merrily

Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.

00:58:23 Merrily

Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.

00:58:35 Merrily

To kind of figure it.

00:58:35 Merrily

Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.

00:58:43 Iain

Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.

00:58:49 Iain

I want to share.

00:58:51 Iain

You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.

00:58:56

Right.

00:58:57 Iain

You know it's.

00:59:01 Iain

It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.

00:59:13 Iain

As a loose.

00:59:13 Iain

Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.

00:59:15 Merrily

Right.

00:59:21 Iain

I'm going.

00:59:21 Iain

Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.

00:59:24 Iain

Bit you know it's.

00:59:25 Iain

Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.

00:59:31 Iain

Books and stuff.

00:59:32 Iain

It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.

00:59:35 Iain

Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.

00:59:37 Merrily

Over there now. Me too. Yeah.

00:59:40 Iain

I will falter.

00:59:41 Iain

And working on it.

00:59:43 Merrily

Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?

00:59:49 Iain

Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.

00:59:51 Merrily

It here you drew on.

00:59:53 Iain

In my cash box is the four.

00:59:56 Iain

Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.

00:59:57 Merrily

Oh, nice.

01:00:16 Iain

Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.

01:00:23 Iain

It, you know, obviously on Thursday.

01:00:25

You know that.

01:00:25 Merrily

Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.

01:00:27 Iain

The success stories.

01:00:29 Iain

Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.

01:00:31 Merrily

I know.

01:00:31 Iain

Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.

01:00:43 Merrily

Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.

01:00:46 Merrily

Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.

01:00:50 Iain

Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.

01:00:53 Iain

I got. I thought I'd be happy.

01:00:55 Iain

With hard to like.

01:00:56 Iain

No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.

01:00:59 Iain

They're so great to hold.

01:01:00 Iain

Oh, I can't help it.

01:01:02 Merrily

I love that Jupiter energy.

01:01:04 Merrily

That did this book impact your magical practice?

01:01:08 Iain

I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.

01:01:13

You know.

01:01:15 Iain

Yeah, it hasn't really.

01:01:18 Iain

It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.

01:01:24 Iain

When it just sort of helps loosen.

01:01:26 Iain

The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.

01:01:34 Iain

Evidence like that will fairy shoe.

01:01:38 Iain

Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.

01:01:43 Iain

Chew on that, yeah.

01:01:44

Yeah, yeah.

01:01:46 Iain

Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?

01:01:52 Iain

Middle of nowhere.

01:01:53 Iain

Yeah, you know, it's.

01:01:54 Iain

Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.

01:02:03 Iain

Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.

01:02:03

That's right.

01:02:06 Iain

Found you know, off the beaten path, you.

01:02:08 Iain

Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?

01:02:10 Iain

And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.

01:02:20 Iain

Of it in.

01:02:21 Iain

The book, you know. So it's just like.

01:02:22 Iain

Explain that you know. And so that's.

01:02:25 Iain

And and you can't and that's sort.

01:02:27 Iain

Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.

01:02:30 Iain

Crop circles and so.

01:02:33 Iain

For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.

01:02:39 Iain

Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.

01:02:46 Iain

Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.

01:03:07 Iain

As far as his conclusions about how.

01:03:12 Iain

I'm not sure you know.

01:03:13 Iain

Like it, I don't know.

01:03:15 Merrily

If I agree.

01:03:16 Iain

With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.

01:03:30 Iain

I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.

01:03:35 Iain

But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.

01:03:54 Iain

Ultimately all these.

01:03:56 Iain

You know all the events he gives in the.

01:03:58 Iain

Book, you know, happen to one person.

01:04:00 Iain

Most of the time you.

01:04:01 Merrily

Right.

01:04:01 Iain

Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.

01:04:14 Iain

Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.

01:04:26 Iain

Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.

01:04:45 Merrily

Right.

01:04:46 Iain

That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.

01:05:02 Merrily

Right.

01:05:04 Iain

Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.

01:05:14 Iain

Them, you know like.

01:05:15 Iain

It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.

01:05:24 Iain

Underneath the.

01:05:25 Merrily

Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.

01:05:45 Merrily

But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.

01:05:54 Iain

Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.

01:06:10 Iain

Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.

01:06:20 Iain

Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.

01:06:31 Iain

But that's.

01:06:33 Iain

An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.

01:06:43 Iain

Personal and then.

01:06:44 Iain

A bit more believable at the.

01:06:45 Iain

Same time and so.

01:06:48 Iain

That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.

01:06:55 Iain

Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.

01:07:09 Iain

I feel it.

01:07:10 Iain

I feel like I.

01:07:11 Iain

Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.

01:07:14 Iain

Have had.

01:07:15 Iain

Very dreamlike nature to.

01:07:18 Merrily

Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.

01:07:19 Merrily

Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.

01:07:24 Iain

Oh I.

01:07:25 Iain

I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.

01:07:28 Iain

Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.

01:07:29 Merrily

No, you were great. No, you're great.

01:07:33 Merrily

So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.

01:07:47 Merrily

That you've been enjoying lately, that.

01:07:48 Merrily

You'd like to share?

01:07:52 Iain

Well, I'm just. I'm the.

01:07:53 Iain

Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.

01:07:58 Iain

That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.

01:08:10 Iain

World you experience.

01:08:11 Iain

And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?

01:08:18 Iain

Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.

01:08:32 Iain

Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.

01:08:52 Iain

You know, especially as a society will get.

01:08:55 Iain

It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.

01:09:12 Iain

Gospel of meditation.

01:09:14 Iain

That's it.

01:09:15 Iain

It's meditate. Learn silence.

01:09:20 Iain

Know where you are.

01:09:23 Iain

Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.

01:09:44 Iain

It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.

01:09:55 Iain

You know, just knowing.

01:09:57 Iain

Where you are.

01:09:59 Iain

Be aligned to the directions and just.

01:10:04 Iain

And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.

01:10:07

That's just fine.

01:10:08 Iain

Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.

01:10:18 Iain

You know.

01:10:19 Iain

Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.

01:10:24 Merrily

Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.

01:10:35 Merrily

Of blew my mind a little.

01:10:35 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:37 Iain

That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.

01:10:39 Iain

Cause it's like why did?

01:10:39 Iain

I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.

01:10:43 Iain

That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.

01:10:44 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:49 Iain

Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.

01:10:54 Iain

Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.

01:11:14 Iain

Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.

01:11:31 Iain

Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.

01:11:34 Merrily

Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.

01:11:40 Iain

That sounds.

01:11:41 Merrily

Cells, yeah.

01:11:44 Merrily

So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?

01:11:53 Iain

Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.

01:12:04 Iain

King Rainbow 8.

01:12:06 Iain

All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.

01:12:22 Merrily

Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.

01:12:37

Yeah, yeah, I.

01:12:38 Iain

Appreciate that. Thank you.

01:12:40

Thank you.

01:12:44 Merrily

That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.

01:12:54 Merrily

Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.

01:13:04 Merrily

Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.

01:13:16 Merrily

Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Tempo podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.

udio file

EP07_Casual Temple_Iain Shelley_2023-09-12.mp3

Transcript

00:00:00 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.

00:00:08 Iain

Our lives and it's.

00:00:10 Iain

Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.

00:00:18 Iain

Know but and.

00:00:20 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.

00:00:25 Merrily

Right.

00:00:41 Merrily

This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.

00:00:56 Merrily

Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.

00:00:59 Merrily

Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.

00:01:20 Merrily

Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.

00:01:40 Merrily

Look, without the dust cover.

00:01:43 Merrily

Cause none of us.

00:01:43 Merrily

Like that.

00:01:44 Iain

I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.

00:01:47 Iain

I should grab it actually.

00:01:49 Merrily

If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.

00:02:02 Merrily

To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.

00:02:11 Merrily

Tuning just so you know.

00:02:11 Iain

I know no. What is?

00:02:12 Iain

Up with that every I.

00:02:13 Iain

Forgot about it. You know, when I.

00:02:15 Iain

Reread it this.

00:02:15 Iain

Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.

00:02:23 Iain

They had this.

00:02:24 Iain

Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.

00:02:29 Merrily

I looked into it.

00:02:31 Iain

Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?

00:02:34 Merrily

Right. I mean, no, it's I.

00:02:35 Iain

The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.

00:02:35 Merrily

Mean it's.

00:02:39 Iain

Know it's to you.

00:02:40 Merrily

I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.

00:02:41

OK.

00:02:43 Iain

Oh yes.

00:02:44 Merrily

Say it's.

00:02:45 Iain

This is primarily makes sense.

00:02:47 Merrily

Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.

00:02:54 Merrily

Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.

00:03:13 Merrily

By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.

00:03:31 Merrily

Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.

00:03:43 Iain

OK.

00:03:51 Merrily

Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.

00:04:05 Merrily

Them. There it is.

00:04:09 Merrily

So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.

00:04:16 Merrily

On the book.

00:04:17 Iain

Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.

00:04:28 Iain

To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.

00:04:37 Iain

We were in the when that foolish 5th server.

00:04:40 Iain

It was recommended then and.

00:04:43 Iain

The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.

00:04:51 Iain

Able to accept.

00:04:52 Iain

Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.

00:05:04 Iain

Funds we've all grown up and.

00:05:06 Iain

Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.

00:05:26 Iain

A lot of these.

00:05:27 Iain

Events are just direct taunts to them.

00:05:29 Iain

Reflex and getting over it.

00:05:33 Iain

Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.

00:05:44 Iain

System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.

00:06:04 Iain

I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.

00:06:13 Iain

You know, day-to-day or something.

00:06:15 Iain

Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.

00:06:32 Iain

Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.

00:06:39 Merrily

Right.

00:06:40 Iain

You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.

00:06:55 Iain

I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.

00:06:57 Iain

It When it happens and then.

00:06:59 Iain

You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.

00:07:19 Iain

Versus the more you know, Diane.

00:07:25 Iain

Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.

00:07:44 Iain

That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.

00:07:50 Iain

Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.

00:07:57 Iain

Experience it.

00:07:59 Iain

With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.

00:08:03 Iain

The second time around.

00:08:04 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.

00:08:26 Iain

Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.

00:08:31 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:08:42 Iain

I don't get the.

00:08:45 Iain

You know, as far as direct experiences?

00:08:47 Iain

You know what?

00:08:48 Iain

Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.

00:09:04 Iain

And we'll.

00:09:05 Iain

Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.

00:09:10 Merrily

Right.

00:09:25 Iain

You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.

00:09:37

OK.

00:09:40 Iain

I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.

00:09:45

Right.

00:10:01 Iain

You know, like I keep waiting you.

00:10:02 Iain

Know for the holy.

00:10:02 Iain

Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.

00:10:03 Merrily

Right.

00:10:05 Iain

You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.

00:10:20 Iain

Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.

00:10:24 Iain

Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.

00:10:31 Merrily

OK.

00:10:35 Iain

And so it's been a bit more of a.

00:10:39 Iain

Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.

00:10:52 Merrily

Right.

00:10:54 Iain

You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.

00:11:11 Iain

If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.

00:11:15 Iain

What you could?

00:11:16 Iain

Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.

00:11:23 Iain

Triangle you know and it's.

00:11:25 Iain

It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.

00:11:27 Merrily

Right.

00:11:32 Iain

Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.

00:11:42 Iain

As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.

00:11:52 Iain

Can practice.

00:11:55

And that's the.

00:11:55 Iain

Challenge about Trump against that elevator.

00:11:58 Merrily

Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.

00:12:06 Merrily

In your house, right?

00:12:08 Iain

Yeah, there you go.

00:12:10 Iain

Yeah, I mean.

00:12:10 Iain

I could. Yeah, I could do.

00:12:12 Iain

It outside. I've got some space.

00:12:13 Iain

I could imagine.

00:12:14 Iain

Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.

00:12:21 Iain

Yeah, but it's also intimidating.

00:12:23 Merrily

Yes. Yeah, it's a little.

00:12:24 Merrily

Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.

00:12:26 Iain

Yeah, yeah, but I need to.

00:12:30 Iain

It sounds exciting.

00:12:30 Merrily

So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.

00:12:40 Iain

Yes. Yeah.

00:12:43 Merrily

Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?

00:12:50

To share, yeah.

00:12:53 Iain

Yeah. So.

00:12:55 Iain

I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?

00:13:14 Iain

It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.

00:13:27 Iain

Learned this.

00:13:27 Iain

Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.

00:13:30 Iain

It but yeah so.

00:13:32 Iain

The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.

00:13:38 Iain

Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.

00:13:59 Iain

It's this.

00:14:00 Iain

It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.

00:14:12 Iain

Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.

00:14:20 Iain

Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.

00:14:28 Iain

It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.

00:14:33 Merrily

Right.

00:14:43 Iain

These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.

00:14:47 Iain

Even shelter they you know, it's.

00:14:51 Iain

It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.

00:15:08 Iain

In the.

00:15:10 Iain

In the collective unconscious.

00:15:13 Iain

It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.

00:15:27 Merrily

Yeah, I.

00:15:28 Iain

It's very hard to define.

00:15:30 Merrily

It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.

00:15:39 Merrily

To put things.

00:15:40 Merrily

In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.

00:15:44 Merrily

Like I gotta. I gotta.

00:15:44

And now we.

00:15:44 Iain

Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.

00:15:48 Merrily

It's super hard.

00:15:49 Merrily

So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.

00:15:55 Merrily

Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.

00:16:14 Merrily

And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.

00:16:31 Merrily

But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?

00:16:39 Merrily

Is that what that's going into?

00:16:41 Iain

Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.

00:16:52 Iain

Is with words and.

00:16:53 Iain

You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.

00:16:59 Iain

Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.

00:17:07 Iain

And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.

00:17:27 Iain

You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.

00:17:40 Iain

Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.

00:17:59 Iain

Or you know.

00:18:00 Iain

Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.

00:18:12 Iain

You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.

00:18:16 Iain

Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.

00:18:20 Iain

But not at the same time you know both with.

00:18:23 Iain

And without form.

00:18:25 Merrily

Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.

00:18:33 Merrily

It that's cool.

00:18:33 Iain

Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.

00:18:47 Iain

This sort of.

00:18:49 Iain

Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.

00:18:56 Iain

A very good.

00:18:57 Iain

His material is very good to work with as.

00:18:59 Iain

Well, in accompaniment.

00:19:00 Iain

With us, yeah.

00:19:02 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.

00:19:12 Merrily

That series.

00:19:12 Iain

40 heretics, yeah.

00:19:12 Merrily

Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.

00:19:14 Merrily

Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?

00:19:32 Iain

Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.

00:19:46 Iain

Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.

00:19:55

If I was.

00:19:56 Iain

At a time, you know, when I was driving.

00:19:59 Iain

You could be just driving past a A.

00:20:01 Iain

Street, you know.

00:20:01 Iain

At night you just pass a.

00:20:03 Iain

Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.

00:20:07 Iain

You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.

00:20:12 Iain

'S real to you?

00:20:13 Iain

Could be just a plastic bag.

00:20:17 Iain

Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.

00:20:24 Iain

Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.

00:20:28 Iain

Telling people about it.

00:20:30 Iain

Then that's real to a bunch of.

00:20:31 Iain

Other people too.

00:20:32 Iain

So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.

00:20:36 Iain

Telephone. Basically where?

00:20:37 Iain

Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.

00:20:42 Iain

For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.

00:20:50 Iain

Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.

00:20:51 Merrily

Right.

00:21:03 Iain

Demonic reality.

00:21:05 Iain

Is just being able to.

00:21:07 Iain

Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.

00:21:20 Iain

You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.

00:21:37 Iain

You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.

00:21:53 Iain

You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.

00:21:59 Iain

And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.

00:22:18 Merrily

That's right.

00:22:18 Iain

Aspect which we can.

00:22:19 Iain

All relate to.

00:22:22 Iain

You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.

00:22:24 Iain

Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.

00:22:44 Iain

Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.

00:22:48 Iain

Where these events?

00:22:49 Iain

Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.

00:22:59 Iain

They'll get the.

00:23:01 Iain

Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.

00:23:07 Iain

About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.

00:23:11 Iain

On in that and.

00:23:12 Iain

You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?

00:23:16 Merrily

Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.

00:23:26 Iain

Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.

00:23:46 Iain

That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.

00:23:52 Iain

You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.

00:24:00 Iain

Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.

00:24:09 Iain

Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.

00:24:18 Iain

Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.

00:24:24 Iain

These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.

00:24:29 Iain

Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.

00:24:34 Merrily

Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.

00:24:45 Merrily

Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.

00:24:51 Merrily

Somebody talked about.

00:24:52 Merrily

His Gray abduction.

00:24:54 Merrily

Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.

00:25:14 Merrily

The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.

00:25:22 Iain

Yeah, I saw interstellar.

00:25:26 Merrily

That movie.

00:25:29 Merrily

But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.

00:25:33 Merrily

Our fears, right, but that.

00:25:35 Merrily

We're going to become some sort of weird.

00:25:37 Merrily

Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.

00:25:41 Iain

Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.

00:25:57 Iain

Of follows the between what?

00:26:01 Iain

First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.

00:26:15 Iain

Of is is, is.

00:26:16 Iain

Out of.

00:26:17 Iain

Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.

00:26:20 Iain

From below, they now come from above.

00:26:23 Iain

So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.

00:26:25 Iain

From next.

00:26:27 Merrily

Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.

00:26:37 Merrily

At large.

00:26:37 Iain

I was thinking that.

00:26:38 Merrily

Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.

00:26:43 Merrily

And so we're probably hearing more around.

00:26:47 Merrily

Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.

00:26:55 Iain

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.

00:26:59 Iain

Alex is what's letting us all do it.

00:27:01 Iain

Really. Is this this new?

00:27:02 Merrily

That's true.

00:27:05 Iain

This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.

00:27:09 Iain

Opening up some minds and.

00:27:11 Iain

Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.

00:27:14 Merrily

So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.

00:27:32 Iain

You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.

00:27:39 Iain

Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?

00:27:50 Iain

And sane. And you know in.

00:27:53 Iain

This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.

00:28:00 Iain

You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.

00:28:09 Merrily

Yep. Like Nope.

00:28:19 Iain

That there is one.

00:28:20 Merrily

Right.

00:28:21 Iain

It's kind of, you know, like.

00:28:21 Iain

Even if I can't think of it, it's like.

00:28:23 Iain

Well, it's probably swamp.

00:28:23 Iain

Gas Cause swamp gas this.

00:28:26 Iain

Is a thing.

00:28:27 Iain

You know that if you swap gas.

00:28:30 Iain

You know like.

00:28:31 Iain

Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.

00:28:35 Iain

As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.

00:28:59 Iain

Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.

00:28:59 Merrily

Right.

00:29:05 Iain

I found that interesting.

00:29:05 Iain

As well.

00:29:06 Iain

Yeah, but.

00:29:07 Merrily

So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.

00:29:17 Merrily

Story of her.

00:29:19 Merrily

Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.

00:29:21 Merrily

And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.

00:29:37 Merrily

Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.

00:29:41 Merrily

1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.

00:29:47 Merrily

And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.

00:29:57 Iain

She knew, right?

00:29:58 Merrily

And then yes and.

00:29:59 Merrily

Then so she had to go with like a.

00:30:01 Merrily

Pile like of.

00:30:02 Merrily

Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.

00:30:06 Merrily

Into that forest.

00:30:08 Iain

Ohh man.

00:30:08 Merrily

To like get.

00:30:09 Merrily

To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.

00:30:13 Merrily

Apparently, according to my mom.

00:30:14 Iain

Very tense relations, yeah.

00:30:17 Merrily

Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.

00:30:37 Merrily

As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?

00:30:45 Merrily

Like oh so.

00:30:45 Merrily

Naive and so like ohh they just.

00:30:48 Merrily

Not cool, yeah.

00:30:50 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.

00:31:02 Iain

You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.

00:31:09 Iain

You know but and.

00:31:10 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.

00:31:16

Right.

00:31:21 Iain

The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.

00:31:30 Iain

Or whatever if we.

00:31:33 Iain

If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.

00:31:44 Iain

Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.

00:32:02 Iain

Existing more on the astral plane.

00:32:05 Iain

In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.

00:32:25 Iain

As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.

00:32:38 Iain

With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.

00:32:47 Iain

A lot of change.

00:32:48 Iain

As we sort of have a more.

00:32:51 Iain

As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.

00:32:57 Iain

I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.

00:33:12 Iain

Trying to find our way.

00:33:14 Merrily

Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.

00:33:23 Merrily

I never considered.

00:33:23 Iain

I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.

00:33:24

That, yeah.

00:33:30 Iain

Out of me, that's fun.

00:33:30 Merrily

No, I followed it. It was great.

00:33:32 Merrily

Now I'm going to have to chew.

00:33:33 Merrily

On that too.

00:33:36 Merrily

Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.

00:33:45 Merrily

It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.

00:33:47 Iain

Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.

00:33:50 Iain

And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.

00:33:57 Iain

All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.

00:34:00 Iain

They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.

00:34:20 Iain

Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.

00:34:23 Iain

Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.

00:34:32 Iain

All seem to come out.

00:34:33 Iain

You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.

00:34:39

Right.

00:34:43 Iain

That these events come from something that we all are.

00:34:46 Iain

Connected to you know.

00:34:48 Iain

These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.

00:35:08 Iain

You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.

00:35:18 Iain

Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?

00:35:25 Merrily

Right.

00:35:29 Iain

That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.

00:35:33 Iain

They happen, but I think.

00:35:35 Iain

Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.

00:35:40 Merrily

That's true.

00:35:55 Iain

I'm kind of like.

00:35:57 Iain

It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?

00:36:00 Iain

Distract us from.

00:36:01 Iain

Right now, with these stories, it's just.

00:36:03 Iain

Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.

00:36:05 Iain

But it's like because.

00:36:08 Iain

So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.

00:36:13 Iain

But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.

00:36:21 Iain

Military footage and stuff and.

00:36:26 Iain

You know, I I.

00:36:27 Iain

Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.

00:36:32 Merrily

Right.

00:36:34 Iain

But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.

00:36:46 Merrily

Right.

00:36:47 Iain

Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.

00:36:51 Iain

It's it's it's a direct it.

00:36:53 Iain

Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.

00:36:56 Iain

I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.

00:37:07 Iain

You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.

00:37:13 Iain

Did those happen?

00:37:15 Iain

They're perfect, you know.

00:37:16 Iain

The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.

00:37:21 Iain

Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.

00:37:36 Iain

Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.

00:37:56 Iain

To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.

00:38:00 Iain

With and it's like.

00:38:02 Iain

Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.

00:38:11 Iain

Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.

00:38:28 Iain

As possible fiction.

00:38:31 Iain

And that's where it's sort of going to stay.

00:38:36 Iain

I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.

00:38:49 Iain

Newborn he he swiped he.

00:38:52 Iain

Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.

00:38:56 Iain

Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.

00:39:03 Merrily

That's right.

00:39:04 Iain

Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.

00:39:10 Iain

It's a taunt.

00:39:12 Iain

You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.

00:39:31

The other one.

00:39:33 Merrily

Yeah, I can see the diagram.

00:39:35 Iain

Yeah, where links.

00:39:37 Iain

All the phenomena.

00:39:38 Iain

It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.

00:39:50 Iain

And it sort of links them across a continuum.

00:39:53 Iain

That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.

00:39:57 Iain

Context basically for them to all being.

00:40:01 Iain

It's he does give a nice.

00:40:03 Iain

Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.

00:40:06 Iain

And that's kind of what I like in that.

00:40:09 Iain

You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.

00:40:19 Iain

What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.

00:40:21 Merrily

Right.

00:40:26 Iain

Hermes, you know of a.

00:40:28 Iain

A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.

00:40:34 Iain

But but we will also be able to forget.

00:40:38 Iain

That fact and just.

00:40:39 Iain

Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.

00:40:41 Iain

Accepting both those realities.

00:40:43 Iain

Is is so.

00:40:46 Iain

I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.

00:40:58 Iain

Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.

00:41:02 Iain

Where you allow for.

00:41:04 Iain

Crazy things, but.

00:41:07 Iain

Live in a rational world.

00:41:08 Merrily

Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.

00:41:21 Iain

Exactly, yeah.

00:41:23 Iain

He's he's a baby. He was a baby.

00:41:25 Iain

At this time, he had.

00:41:25 Merrily

Yeah, exactly.

00:41:27 Iain

He had. It was pure.

00:41:28 Iain

Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.

00:41:34 Iain

Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.

00:41:37 Merrily

Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.

00:41:43 Merrily

Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.

00:42:04 Merrily

And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.

00:42:11 Merrily

Have to do you believe somebody's story or?

00:42:13 Merrily

Do you not, you know, like?

00:42:17 Merrily

It's kind of like that.

00:42:18 Iain

Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.

00:42:36 Merrily

That's right.

00:42:39 Iain

Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.

00:42:59 Iain

Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.

00:43:03 Iain

Of both worlds.

00:43:04 Merrily

Right.

00:43:05 Iain

And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.

00:43:16 Iain

Very helpful for me in my own.

00:43:18 Iain

Life, I must say, yeah.

00:43:21 Merrily

So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.

00:43:42

Of these.

00:43:43 Merrily

Understandings. But how do you square?

00:43:46 Merrily

Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.

00:43:57 Iain

I love it you.

00:43:58 Iain

Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.

00:43:58

I yeah.

00:44:05 Iain

You know all of the.

00:44:08 Iain

It's really satisfying, yeah.

00:44:11 Merrily

So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.

00:44:17 Merrily

Because I don't want to fall into.

00:44:18 Merrily

This trap of like.

00:44:21 Merrily

Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.

00:44:24 Merrily

Kabbalah, right?

00:44:25 Iain

I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.

00:44:33 Merrily

Oh, OK.

00:44:36 Merrily

Got you.

00:44:47 Iain

Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.

00:44:50 Merrily

Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.

00:44:54 Iain

Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.

00:44:56 Iain

You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.

00:44:59 Iain

The pads, yeah.

00:45:00 Merrily

List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.

00:45:06 Iain

Yeah, it seeps in over time.

00:45:09 Iain

It really does, especially.

00:45:11 Iain

Because it just helps you learn.

00:45:12 Iain

I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.

00:45:15 Merrily

Oh yeah.

00:45:17 Iain

You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.

00:45:23 Iain

So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.

00:45:28 Merrily

Right.

00:45:30 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:34 Iain

But it's just to learn passively, just to.

00:45:37 Iain

Mostly tarot, yeah.

00:45:39 Merrily

Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.

00:45:43 Iain

Exactly. No, I know all.

00:45:43 Merrily

Happening, yeah.

00:45:45 Iain

The numbered you know exactly, yeah.

00:45:48 Iain

Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.

00:45:50 Iain

That's the sort of.

00:45:51 Iain

Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.

00:46:00 Iain

That very well accepts A demonic one as well.

00:46:03 Iain

They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.

00:46:07 Merrily

So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.

00:46:10 Iain

Jump. Jump around.

00:46:12 Merrily

Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.

00:46:27 Merrily

In certain systems.

00:46:29 Merrily

Like, how do you?

00:46:31 Merrily

How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?

00:46:43 Iain

As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.

00:46:55 Merrily

Right.

00:46:59 Iain

The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.

00:47:11 Iain

Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.

00:47:14 Iain

Angels right in the middle and.

00:47:15 Iain

Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.

00:47:19 Iain

Sort of as our higher self as they say.

00:47:24 Iain

As far as you know, personal.

00:47:27 Iain

Experiences with my own.

00:47:31 Iain

Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.

00:47:39 Iain

And I think it's just.

00:47:41 Iain

The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.

00:47:49

Right, yes.

00:47:56 Iain

It's the. It's what, people.

00:47:58 Iain

I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.

00:47:59 Iain

Hear as well, which is you know.

00:48:02 Iain

That's kind of.

00:48:02 Iain

It you know, but that's why that's why you.

00:48:04 Iain

Need to do it.

00:48:05 Iain

Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.

00:48:25 Iain

Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.

00:48:29 Merrily

Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.

00:48:35 Merrily

Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.

00:48:40 Merrily

Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.

00:49:01 Merrily

Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.

00:49:08

Good luck.

00:49:10

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:14 Merrily

Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.

00:49:24 Merrily

Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.

00:49:28 Merrily

Yeah, because you need to parse out.

00:49:32 Merrily

The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.

00:49:39 Merrily

Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.

00:49:44 Iain

Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.

00:49:51 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:52 Iain

Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.

00:49:57 Iain

Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.

00:50:02 Iain

The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.

00:50:08 Iain

Like that method.

00:50:09 Merrily

I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.

00:50:13 Merrily

In her practice.

00:50:13 Iain

And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.

00:50:16 Merrily

Oh, fraud rocker does.

00:50:17 Iain

To you, they're links too.

00:50:19 Merrily

I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.

00:50:23 Merrily

Something like that.

00:50:24 Iain

Yeah, they work together, yeah.

00:50:25 Iain

Something like that, yeah.

00:50:28 Merrily

Well, cool. Let's see, I have.

00:50:32 Merrily

OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.

00:50:46 Merrily

There my question.

00:50:48 Iain

Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.

00:50:52 Iain

I found that they are.

00:50:55 Iain

Used to usually break someone out of what's.

00:50:59 Iain

I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.

00:51:10 Iain

Sort of.

00:51:11 Iain

Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.

00:51:21 Iain

In it but he.

00:51:23 Iain

He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.

00:51:34 Iain

Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.

00:51:54 Iain

Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.

00:52:06 Iain

Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.

00:52:25 Iain

Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.

00:52:32 Merrily

MM.

00:52:45 Iain

Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.

00:52:54 Iain

Up and.

00:52:55 Iain

Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.

00:53:05 Iain

I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.

00:53:13 Iain

You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.

00:53:16 Iain

Go up, up.

00:53:17 Iain

Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.

00:53:19 Iain

They you.

00:53:20 Iain

Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.

00:53:22 Iain

Can imagine you.

00:53:23 Iain

Know. Imagine it's just on on.

00:53:24 Iain

The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.

00:53:32 Iain

Above to it.

00:53:33 Iain

Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.

00:53:41 Iain

So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.

00:54:02 Iain

So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.

00:54:13 Iain

It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.

00:54:16 Merrily

Right.

00:54:33 Iain

You know, often you find it to be the most.

00:54:36 Iain

The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.

00:54:49 Iain

It can it.

00:54:49 Iain

Can it even just?

00:54:50 Iain

Be something like movies as well.

00:54:52 Iain

Or any pop culture. A lot of you.

00:54:54 Iain

Know that's why art.

00:54:56 Iain

Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.

00:55:06 Merrily

Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.

00:55:12 Merrily

Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.

00:55:26 Merrily

American boy of a certain tribe, you.

00:55:28 Merrily

Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?

00:55:33 Merrily

Few days or whatever.

00:55:34 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

00:55:35 Merrily

And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.

00:55:46 Merrily

Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.

00:56:06 Merrily

That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.

00:56:15 Merrily

Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.

00:56:28

Yeah, yeah.

00:56:31 Iain

Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.

00:56:40 Iain

This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.

00:57:01 Iain

Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.

00:57:11 Merrily

Right.

00:57:12 Iain

You know, so I think it's a big part of what?

00:57:15 Iain

Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.

00:57:23 Iain

The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.

00:57:35 Merrily

Right.

00:57:36 Iain

And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.

00:57:41 Iain

Most like most.

00:57:42 Iain

Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.

00:57:46 Iain

Of it, they've been.

00:57:47 Iain

Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.

00:57:52 Merrily

I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.

00:58:13 Merrily

Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.

00:58:23 Merrily

Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.

00:58:35 Merrily

To kind of figure it.

00:58:35 Merrily

Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.

00:58:43 Iain

Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.

00:58:49 Iain

I want to share.

00:58:51 Iain

You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.

00:58:56

Right.

00:58:57 Iain

You know it's.

00:59:01 Iain

It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.

00:59:13 Iain

As a loose.

00:59:13 Iain

Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.

00:59:15 Merrily

Right.

00:59:21 Iain

I'm going.

00:59:21 Iain

Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.

00:59:24 Iain

Bit you know it's.

00:59:25 Iain

Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.

00:59:31 Iain

Books and stuff.

00:59:32 Iain

It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.

00:59:35 Iain

Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.

00:59:37 Merrily

Over there now. Me too. Yeah.

00:59:40 Iain

I will falter.

00:59:41 Iain

And working on it.

00:59:43 Merrily

Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?

00:59:49 Iain

Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.

00:59:51 Merrily

It here you drew on.

00:59:53 Iain

In my cash box is the four.

00:59:56 Iain

Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.

00:59:57 Merrily

Oh, nice.

01:00:16 Iain

Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.

01:00:23 Iain

It, you know, obviously on Thursday.

01:00:25

You know that.

01:00:25 Merrily

Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.

01:00:27 Iain

The success stories.

01:00:29 Iain

Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.

01:00:31 Merrily

I know.

01:00:31 Iain

Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.

01:00:43 Merrily

Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.

01:00:46 Merrily

Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.

01:00:50 Iain

Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.

01:00:53 Iain

I got. I thought I'd be happy.

01:00:55 Iain

With hard to like.

01:00:56 Iain

No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.

01:00:59 Iain

They're so great to hold.

01:01:00 Iain

Oh, I can't help it.

01:01:02 Merrily

I love that Jupiter energy.

01:01:04 Merrily

That did this book impact your magical practice?

01:01:08 Iain

I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.

01:01:13

You know.

01:01:15 Iain

Yeah, it hasn't really.

01:01:18 Iain

It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.

01:01:24 Iain

When it just sort of helps loosen.

01:01:26 Iain

The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.

01:01:34 Iain

Evidence like that will fairy shoe.

01:01:38 Iain

Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.

01:01:43 Iain

Chew on that, yeah.

01:01:44

Yeah, yeah.

01:01:46 Iain

Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?

01:01:52 Iain

Middle of nowhere.

01:01:53 Iain

Yeah, you know, it's.

01:01:54 Iain

Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.

01:02:03 Iain

Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.

01:02:03

That's right.

01:02:06 Iain

Found you know, off the beaten path, you.

01:02:08 Iain

Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?

01:02:10 Iain

And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.

01:02:20 Iain

Of it in.

01:02:21 Iain

The book, you know. So it's just like.

01:02:22 Iain

Explain that you know. And so that's.

01:02:25 Iain

And and you can't and that's sort.

01:02:27 Iain

Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.

01:02:30 Iain

Crop circles and so.

01:02:33 Iain

For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.

01:02:39 Iain

Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.

01:02:46 Iain

Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.

01:03:07 Iain

As far as his conclusions about how.

01:03:12 Iain

I'm not sure you know.

01:03:13 Iain

Like it, I don't know.

01:03:15 Merrily

If I agree.

01:03:16 Iain

With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.

01:03:30 Iain

I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.

01:03:35 Iain

But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.

01:03:54 Iain

Ultimately all these.

01:03:56 Iain

You know all the events he gives in the.

01:03:58 Iain

Book, you know, happen to one person.

01:04:00 Iain

Most of the time you.

01:04:01 Merrily

Right.

01:04:01 Iain

Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.

01:04:14 Iain

Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.

01:04:26 Iain

Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.

01:04:45 Merrily

Right.

01:04:46 Iain

That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.

01:05:02 Merrily

Right.

01:05:04 Iain

Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.

01:05:14 Iain

Them, you know like.

01:05:15 Iain

It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.

01:05:24 Iain

Underneath the.

01:05:25 Merrily

Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.

01:05:45 Merrily

But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.

01:05:54 Iain

Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.

01:06:10 Iain

Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.

01:06:20 Iain

Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.

01:06:31 Iain

But that's.

01:06:33 Iain

An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.

01:06:43 Iain

Personal and then.

01:06:44 Iain

A bit more believable at the.

01:06:45 Iain

Same time and so.

01:06:48 Iain

That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.

01:06:55 Iain

Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.

01:07:09 Iain

I feel it.

01:07:10 Iain

I feel like I.

01:07:11 Iain

Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.

01:07:14 Iain

Have had.

01:07:15 Iain

Very dreamlike nature to.

01:07:18 Merrily

Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.

01:07:19 Merrily

Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.

01:07:24 Iain

Oh I.

01:07:25 Iain

I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.

01:07:28 Iain

Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.

01:07:29 Merrily

No, you were great. No, you're great.

01:07:33 Merrily

So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.

01:07:47 Merrily

That you've been enjoying lately, that.

01:07:48 Merrily

You'd like to share?

01:07:52 Iain

Well, I'm just. I'm the.

01:07:53 Iain

Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.

01:07:58 Iain

That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.

01:08:10 Iain

World you experience.

01:08:11 Iain

And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?

01:08:18 Iain

Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.

01:08:32 Iain

Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.

01:08:52 Iain

You know, especially as a society will get.

01:08:55 Iain

It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.

01:09:12 Iain

Gospel of meditation.

01:09:14 Iain

That's it.

01:09:15 Iain

It's meditate. Learn silence.

01:09:20 Iain

Know where you are.

01:09:23 Iain

Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.

01:09:44 Iain

It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.

01:09:55 Iain

You know, just knowing.

01:09:57 Iain

Where you are.

01:09:59 Iain

Be aligned to the directions and just.

01:10:04 Iain

And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.

01:10:07

That's just fine.

01:10:08 Iain

Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.

01:10:18 Iain

You know.

01:10:19 Iain

Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.

01:10:24 Merrily

Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.

01:10:35 Merrily

Of blew my mind a little.

01:10:35 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:37 Iain

That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.

01:10:39 Iain

Cause it's like why did?

01:10:39 Iain

I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.

01:10:43 Iain

That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.

01:10:44 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:49 Iain

Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.

01:10:54 Iain

Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.

01:11:14 Iain

Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.

01:11:31 Iain

Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.

01:11:34 Merrily

Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.

01:11:40 Iain

That sounds.

01:11:41 Merrily

Cells, yeah.

01:11:44 Merrily

So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?

01:11:53 Iain

Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.

01:12:04 Iain

King Rainbow 8.

01:12:06 Iain

All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.

01:12:22 Merrily

Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.

01:12:37

Yeah, yeah, I.

01:12:38 Iain

Appreciate that. Thank you.

01:12:40

Thank you.

01:12:44 Merrily

That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.

01:12:54 Merrily

Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.

01:Transcript

00:00:00 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.

00:00:08 Iain

Our lives and it's.

00:00:10 Iain

Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.

00:00:18 Iain

Know but and.

00:00:20 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.

00:00:25 Merrily

Right.

00:00:41 Merrily

This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.

00:00:56 Merrily

Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.

00:00:59 Merrily

Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.

00:01:20 Merrily

Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.

00:01:40 Merrily

Look, without the dust cover.

00:01:43 Merrily

Cause none of us.

00:01:43 Merrily

Like that.

00:01:44 Iain

I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.

00:01:47 Iain

I should grab it actually.

00:01:49 Merrily

If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.

00:02:02 Merrily

To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.

00:02:11 Merrily

Tuning just so you know.

00:02:11 Iain

I know no. What is?

00:02:12 Iain

Up with that every I.

00:02:13 Iain

Forgot about it. You know, when I.

00:02:15 Iain

Reread it this.

00:02:15 Iain

Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.

00:02:23 Iain

They had this.

00:02:24 Iain

Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.

00:02:29 Merrily

I looked into it.

00:02:31 Iain

Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?

00:02:34 Merrily

Right. I mean, no, it's I.

00:02:35 Iain

The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.

00:02:35 Merrily

Mean it's.

00:02:39 Iain

Know it's to you.

00:02:40 Merrily

I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.

00:02:41

OK.

00:02:43 Iain

Oh yes.

00:02:44 Merrily

Say it's.

00:02:45 Iain

This is primarily makes sense.

00:02:47 Merrily

Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.

00:02:54 Merrily

Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.

00:03:13 Merrily

By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.

00:03:31 Merrily

Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.

00:03:43 Iain

OK.

00:03:51 Merrily

Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.

00:04:05 Merrily

Them. There it is.

00:04:09 Merrily

So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.

00:04:16 Merrily

On the book.

00:04:17 Iain

Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.

00:04:28 Iain

To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.

00:04:37 Iain

We were in the when that foolish 5th server.

00:04:40 Iain

It was recommended then and.

00:04:43 Iain

The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.

00:04:51 Iain

Able to accept.

00:04:52 Iain

Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.

00:05:04 Iain

Funds we've all grown up and.

00:05:06 Iain

Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.

00:05:26 Iain

A lot of these.

00:05:27 Iain

Events are just direct taunts to them.

00:05:29 Iain

Reflex and getting over it.

00:05:33 Iain

Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.

00:05:44 Iain

System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.

00:06:04 Iain

I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.

00:06:13 Iain

You know, day-to-day or something.

00:06:15 Iain

Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.

00:06:32 Iain

Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.

00:06:39 Merrily

Right.

00:06:40 Iain

You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.

00:06:55 Iain

I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.

00:06:57 Iain

It When it happens and then.

00:06:59 Iain

You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.

00:07:19 Iain

Versus the more you know, Diane.

00:07:25 Iain

Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.

00:07:44 Iain

That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.

00:07:50 Iain

Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.

00:07:57 Iain

Experience it.

00:07:59 Iain

With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.

00:08:03 Iain

The second time around.

00:08:04 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.

00:08:26 Iain

Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.

00:08:31 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:08:42 Iain

I don't get the.

00:08:45 Iain

You know, as far as direct experiences?

00:08:47 Iain

You know what?

00:08:48 Iain

Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.

00:09:04 Iain

And we'll.

00:09:05 Iain

Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.

00:09:10 Merrily

Right.

00:09:25 Iain

You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.

00:09:37

OK.

00:09:40 Iain

I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.

00:09:45

Right.

00:10:01 Iain

You know, like I keep waiting you.

00:10:02 Iain

Know for the holy.

00:10:02 Iain

Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.

00:10:03 Merrily

Right.

00:10:05 Iain

You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.

00:10:20 Iain

Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.

00:10:24 Iain

Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.

00:10:31 Merrily

OK.

00:10:35 Iain

And so it's been a bit more of a.

00:10:39 Iain

Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.

00:10:52 Merrily

Right.

00:10:54 Iain

You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.

00:11:11 Iain

If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.

00:11:15 Iain

What you could?

00:11:16 Iain

Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.

00:11:23 Iain

Triangle you know and it's.

00:11:25 Iain

It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.

00:11:27 Merrily

Right.

00:11:32 Iain

Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.

00:11:42 Iain

As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.

00:11:52 Iain

Can practice.

00:11:55

And that's the.

00:11:55 Iain

Challenge about Trump against that elevator.

00:11:58 Merrily

Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.

00:12:06 Merrily

In your house, right?

00:12:08 Iain

Yeah, there you go.

00:12:10 Iain

Yeah, I mean.

00:12:10 Iain

I could. Yeah, I could do.

00:12:12 Iain

It outside. I've got some space.

00:12:13 Iain

I could imagine.

00:12:14 Iain

Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.

00:12:21 Iain

Yeah, but it's also intimidating.

00:12:23 Merrily

Yes. Yeah, it's a little.

00:12:24 Merrily

Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.

00:12:26 Iain

Yeah, yeah, but I need to.

00:12:30 Iain

It sounds exciting.

00:12:30 Merrily

So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.

00:12:40 Iain

Yes. Yeah.

00:12:43 Merrily

Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?

00:12:50

To share, yeah.

00:12:53 Iain

Yeah. So.

00:12:55 Iain

I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?

00:13:14 Iain

It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.

00:13:27 Iain

Learned this.

00:13:27 Iain

Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.

00:13:30 Iain

It but yeah so.

00:13:32 Iain

The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.

00:13:38 Iain

Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.

00:13:59 Iain

It's this.

00:14:00 Iain

It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.

00:14:12 Iain

Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.

00:14:20 Iain

Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.

00:14:28 Iain

It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.

00:14:33 Merrily

Right.

00:14:43 Iain

These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.

00:14:47 Iain

Even shelter they you know, it's.

00:14:51 Iain

It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.

00:15:08 Iain

In the.

00:15:10 Iain

In the collective unconscious.

00:15:13 Iain

It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.

00:15:27 Merrily

Yeah, I.

00:15:28 Iain

It's very hard to define.

00:15:30 Merrily

It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.

00:15:39 Merrily

To put things.

00:15:40 Merrily

In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.

00:15:44 Merrily

Like I gotta. I gotta.

00:15:44

And now we.

00:15:44 Iain

Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.

00:15:48 Merrily

It's super hard.

00:15:49 Merrily

So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.

00:15:55 Merrily

Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.

00:16:14 Merrily

And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.

00:16:31 Merrily

But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?

00:16:39 Merrily

Is that what that's going into?

00:16:41 Iain

Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.

00:16:52 Iain

Is with words and.

00:16:53 Iain

You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.

00:16:59 Iain

Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.

00:17:07 Iain

And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.

00:17:27 Iain

You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.

00:17:40 Iain

Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.

00:17:59 Iain

Or you know.

00:18:00 Iain

Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.

00:18:12 Iain

You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.

00:18:16 Iain

Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.

00:18:20 Iain

But not at the same time you know both with.

00:18:23 Iain

And without form.

00:18:25 Merrily

Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.

00:18:33 Merrily

It that's cool.

00:18:33 Iain

Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.

00:18:47 Iain

This sort of.

00:18:49 Iain

Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.

00:18:56 Iain

A very good.

00:18:57 Iain

His material is very good to work with as.

00:18:59 Iain

Well, in accompaniment.

00:19:00 Iain

With us, yeah.

00:19:02 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.

00:19:12 Merrily

That series.

00:19:12 Iain

40 heretics, yeah.

00:19:12 Merrily

Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.

00:19:14 Merrily

Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?

00:19:32 Iain

Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.

00:19:46 Iain

Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.

00:19:55

If I was.

00:19:56 Iain

At a time, you know, when I was driving.

00:19:59 Iain

You could be just driving past a A.

00:20:01 Iain

Street, you know.

00:20:01 Iain

At night you just pass a.

00:20:03 Iain

Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.

00:20:07 Iain

You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.

00:20:12 Iain

'S real to you?

00:20:13 Iain

Could be just a plastic bag.

00:20:17 Iain

Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.

00:20:24 Iain

Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.

00:20:28 Iain

Telling people about it.

00:20:30 Iain

Then that's real to a bunch of.

00:20:31 Iain

Other people too.

00:20:32 Iain

So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.

00:20:36 Iain

Telephone. Basically where?

00:20:37 Iain

Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.

00:20:42 Iain

For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.

00:20:50 Iain

Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.

00:20:51 Merrily

Right.

00:21:03 Iain

Demonic reality.

00:21:05 Iain

Is just being able to.

00:21:07 Iain

Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.

00:21:20 Iain

You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.

00:21:37 Iain

You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.

00:21:53 Iain

You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.

00:21:59 Iain

And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.

00:22:18 Merrily

That's right.

00:22:18 Iain

Aspect which we can.

00:22:19 Iain

All relate to.

00:22:22 Iain

You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.

00:22:24 Iain

Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.

00:22:44 Iain

Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.

00:22:48 Iain

Where these events?

00:22:49 Iain

Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.

00:22:59 Iain

They'll get the.

00:23:01 Iain

Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.

00:23:07 Iain

About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.

00:23:11 Iain

On in that and.

00:23:12 Iain

You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?

00:23:16 Merrily

Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.

00:23:26 Iain

Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.

00:23:46 Iain

That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.

00:23:52 Iain

You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.

00:24:00 Iain

Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.

00:24:09 Iain

Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.

00:24:18 Iain

Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.

00:24:24 Iain

These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.

00:24:29 Iain

Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.

00:24:34 Merrily

Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.

00:24:45 Merrily

Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.

00:24:51 Merrily

Somebody talked about.

00:24:52 Merrily

His Gray abduction.

00:24:54 Merrily

Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.

00:25:14 Merrily

The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.

00:25:22 Iain

Yeah, I saw interstellar.

00:25:26 Merrily

That movie.

00:25:29 Merrily

But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.

00:25:33 Merrily

Our fears, right, but that.

00:25:35 Merrily

We're going to become some sort of weird.

00:25:37 Merrily

Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.

00:25:41 Iain

Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.

00:25:57 Iain

Of follows the between what?

00:26:01 Iain

First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.

00:26:15 Iain

Of is is, is.

00:26:16 Iain

Out of.

00:26:17 Iain

Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.

00:26:20 Iain

From below, they now come from above.

00:26:23 Iain

So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.

00:26:25 Iain

From next.

00:26:27 Merrily

Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.

00:26:37 Merrily

At large.

00:26:37 Iain

I was thinking that.

00:26:38 Merrily

Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.

00:26:43 Merrily

And so we're probably hearing more around.

00:26:47 Merrily

Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.

00:26:55 Iain

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.

00:26:59 Iain

Alex is what's letting us all do it.

00:27:01 Iain

Really. Is this this new?

00:27:02 Merrily

That's true.

00:27:05 Iain

This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.

00:27:09 Iain

Opening up some minds and.

00:27:11 Iain

Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.

00:27:14 Merrily

So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.

00:27:32 Iain

You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.

00:27:39 Iain

Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?

00:27:50 Iain

And sane. And you know in.

00:27:53 Iain

This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.

00:28:00 Iain

You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.

00:28:09 Merrily

Yep. Like Nope.

00:28:19 Iain

That there is one.

00:28:20 Merrily

Right.

00:28:21 Iain

It's kind of, you know, like.

00:28:21 Iain

Even if I can't think of it, it's like.

00:28:23 Iain

Well, it's probably swamp.

00:28:23 Iain

Gas Cause swamp gas this.

00:28:26 Iain

Is a thing.

00:28:27 Iain

You know that if you swap gas.

00:28:30 Iain

You know like.

00:28:31 Iain

Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.

00:28:35 Iain

As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.

00:28:59 Iain

Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.

00:28:59 Merrily

Right.

00:29:05 Iain

I found that interesting.

00:29:05 Iain

As well.

00:29:06 Iain

Yeah, but.

00:29:07 Merrily

So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.

00:29:17 Merrily

Story of her.

00:29:19 Merrily

Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.

00:29:21 Merrily

And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.

00:29:37 Merrily

Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.

00:29:41 Merrily

1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.

00:29:47 Merrily

And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.

00:29:57 Iain

She knew, right?

00:29:58 Merrily

And then yes and.

00:29:59 Merrily

Then so she had to go with like a.

00:30:01 Merrily

Pile like of.

00:30:02 Merrily

Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.

00:30:06 Merrily

Into that forest.

00:30:08 Iain

Ohh man.

00:30:08 Merrily

To like get.

00:30:09 Merrily

To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.

00:30:13 Merrily

Apparently, according to my mom.

00:30:14 Iain

Very tense relations, yeah.

00:30:17 Merrily

Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.

00:30:37 Merrily

As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?

00:30:45 Merrily

Like oh so.

00:30:45 Merrily

Naive and so like ohh they just.

00:30:48 Merrily

Not cool, yeah.

00:30:50 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.

00:31:02 Iain

You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.

00:31:09 Iain

You know but and.

00:31:10 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.

00:31:16

Right.

00:31:21 Iain

The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.

00:31:30 Iain

Or whatever if we.

00:31:33 Iain

If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.

00:31:44 Iain

Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.

00:32:02 Iain

Existing more on the astral plane.

00:32:05 Iain

In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.

00:32:25 Iain

As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.

00:32:38 Iain

With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.

00:32:47 Iain

A lot of change.

00:32:48 Iain

As we sort of have a more.

00:32:51 Iain

As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.

00:32:57 Iain

I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.

00:33:12 Iain

Trying to find our way.

00:33:14 Merrily

Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.

00:33:23 Merrily

I never considered.

00:33:23 Iain

I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.

00:33:24

That, yeah.

00:33:30 Iain

Out of me, that's fun.

00:33:30 Merrily

No, I followed it. It was great.

00:33:32 Merrily

Now I'm going to have to chew.

00:33:33 Merrily

On that too.

00:33:36 Merrily

Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.

00:33:45 Merrily

It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.

00:33:47 Iain

Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.

00:33:50 Iain

And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.

00:33:57 Iain

All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.

00:34:00 Iain

They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.

00:34:20 Iain

Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.

00:34:23 Iain

Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.

00:34:32 Iain

All seem to come out.

00:34:33 Iain

You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.

00:34:39

Right.

00:34:43 Iain

That these events come from something that we all are.

00:34:46 Iain

Connected to you know.

00:34:48 Iain

These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.

00:35:08 Iain

You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.

00:35:18 Iain

Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?

00:35:25 Merrily

Right.

00:35:29 Iain

That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.

00:35:33 Iain

They happen, but I think.

00:35:35 Iain

Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.

00:35:40 Merrily

That's true.

00:35:55 Iain

I'm kind of like.

00:35:57 Iain

It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?

00:36:00 Iain

Distract us from.

00:36:01 Iain

Right now, with these stories, it's just.

00:36:03 Iain

Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.

00:36:05 Iain

But it's like because.

00:36:08 Iain

So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.

00:36:13 Iain

But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.

00:36:21 Iain

Military footage and stuff and.

00:36:26 Iain

You know, I I.

00:36:27 Iain

Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.

00:36:32 Merrily

Right.

00:36:34 Iain

But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.

00:36:46 Merrily

Right.

00:36:47 Iain

Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.

00:36:51 Iain

It's it's it's a direct it.

00:36:53 Iain

Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.

00:36:56 Iain

I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.

00:37:07 Iain

You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.

00:37:13 Iain

Did those happen?

00:37:15 Iain

They're perfect, you know.

00:37:16 Iain

The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.

00:37:21 Iain

Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.

00:37:36 Iain

Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.

00:37:56 Iain

To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.

00:38:00 Iain

With and it's like.

00:38:02 Iain

Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.

00:38:11 Iain

Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.

00:38:28 Iain

As possible fiction.

00:38:31 Iain

And that's where it's sort of going to stay.

00:38:36 Iain

I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.

00:38:49 Iain

Newborn he he swiped he.

00:38:52 Iain

Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.

00:38:56 Iain

Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.

00:39:03 Merrily

That's right.

00:39:04 Iain

Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.

00:39:10 Iain

It's a taunt.

00:39:12 Iain

You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.

00:39:31

The other one.

00:39:33 Merrily

Yeah, I can see the diagram.

00:39:35 Iain

Yeah, where links.

00:39:37 Iain

All the phenomena.

00:39:38 Iain

It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.

00:39:50 Iain

And it sort of links them across a continuum.

00:39:53 Iain

That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.

00:39:57 Iain

Context basically for them to all being.

00:40:01 Iain

It's he does give a nice.

00:40:03 Iain

Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.

00:40:06 Iain

And that's kind of what I like in that.

00:40:09 Iain

You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.

00:40:19 Iain

What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.

00:40:21 Merrily

Right.

00:40:26 Iain

Hermes, you know of a.

00:40:28 Iain

A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.

00:40:34 Iain

But but we will also be able to forget.

00:40:38 Iain

That fact and just.

00:40:39 Iain

Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.

00:40:41 Iain

Accepting both those realities.

00:40:43 Iain

Is is so.

00:40:46 Iain

I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.

00:40:58 Iain

Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.

00:41:02 Iain

Where you allow for.

00:41:04 Iain

Crazy things, but.

00:41:07 Iain

Live in a rational world.

00:41:08 Merrily

Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.

00:41:21 Iain

Exactly, yeah.

00:41:23 Iain

He's he's a baby. He was a baby.

00:41:25 Iain

At this time, he had.

00:41:25 Merrily

Yeah, exactly.

00:41:27 Iain

He had. It was pure.

00:41:28 Iain

Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.

00:41:34 Iain

Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.

00:41:37 Merrily

Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.

00:41:43 Merrily

Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.

00:42:04 Merrily

And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.

00:42:11 Merrily

Have to do you believe somebody's story or?

00:42:13 Merrily

Do you not, you know, like?

00:42:17 Merrily

It's kind of like that.

00:42:18 Iain

Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.

00:42:36 Merrily

That's right.

00:42:39 Iain

Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.

00:42:59 Iain

Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.

00:43:03 Iain

Of both worlds.

00:43:04 Merrily

Right.

00:43:05 Iain

And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.

00:43:16 Iain

Very helpful for me in my own.

00:43:18 Iain

Life, I must say, yeah.

00:43:21 Merrily

So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.

00:43:42

Of these.

00:43:43 Merrily

Understandings. But how do you square?

00:43:46 Merrily

Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.

00:43:57 Iain

I love it you.

00:43:58 Iain

Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.

00:43:58

I yeah.

00:44:05 Iain

You know all of the.

00:44:08 Iain

It's really satisfying, yeah.

00:44:11 Merrily

So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.

00:44:17 Merrily

Because I don't want to fall into.

00:44:18 Merrily

This trap of like.

00:44:21 Merrily

Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.

00:44:24 Merrily

Kabbalah, right?

00:44:25 Iain

I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.

00:44:33 Merrily

Oh, OK.

00:44:36 Merrily

Got you.

00:44:47 Iain

Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.

00:44:50 Merrily

Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.

00:44:54 Iain

Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.

00:44:56 Iain

You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.

00:44:59 Iain

The pads, yeah.

00:45:00 Merrily

List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.

00:45:06 Iain

Yeah, it seeps in over time.

00:45:09 Iain

It really does, especially.

00:45:11 Iain

Because it just helps you learn.

00:45:12 Iain

I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.

00:45:15 Merrily

Oh yeah.

00:45:17 Iain

You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.

00:45:23 Iain

So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.

00:45:28 Merrily

Right.

00:45:30 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:34 Iain

But it's just to learn passively, just to.

00:45:37 Iain

Mostly tarot, yeah.

00:45:39 Merrily

Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.

00:45:43 Iain

Exactly. No, I know all.

00:45:43 Merrily

Happening, yeah.

00:45:45 Iain

The numbered you know exactly, yeah.

00:45:48 Iain

Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.

00:45:50 Iain

That's the sort of.

00:45:51 Iain

Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.

00:46:00 Iain

That very well accepts A demonic one as well.

00:46:03 Iain

They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.

00:46:07 Merrily

So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.

00:46:10 Iain

Jump. Jump around.

00:46:12 Merrily

Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.

00:46:27 Merrily

In certain systems.

00:46:29 Merrily

Like, how do you?

00:46:31 Merrily

How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?

00:46:43 Iain

As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.

00:46:55 Merrily

Right.

00:46:59 Iain

The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.

00:47:11 Iain

Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.

00:47:14 Iain

Angels right in the middle and.

00:47:15 Iain

Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.

00:47:19 Iain

Sort of as our higher self as they say.

00:47:24 Iain

As far as you know, personal.

00:47:27 Iain

Experiences with my own.

00:47:31 Iain

Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.

00:47:39 Iain

And I think it's just.

00:47:41 Iain

The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.

00:47:49

Right, yes.

00:47:56 Iain

It's the. It's what, people.

00:47:58 Iain

I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.

00:47:59 Iain

Hear as well, which is you know.

00:48:02 Iain

That's kind of.

00:48:02 Iain

It you know, but that's why that's why you.

00:48:04 Iain

Need to do it.

00:48:05 Iain

Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.

00:48:25 Iain

Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.

00:48:29 Merrily

Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.

00:48:35 Merrily

Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.

00:48:40 Merrily

Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.

00:49:01 Merrily

Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.

00:49:08

Good luck.

00:49:10

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:14 Merrily

Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.

00:49:24 Merrily

Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.

00:49:28 Merrily

Yeah, because you need to parse out.

00:49:32 Merrily

The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.

00:49:39 Merrily

Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.

00:49:44 Iain

Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.

00:49:51 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:52 Iain

Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.

00:49:57 Iain

Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.

00:50:02 Iain

The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.

00:50:08 Iain

Like that method.

00:50:09 Merrily

I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.

00:50:13 Merrily

In her practice.

00:50:13 Iain

And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.

00:50:16 Merrily

Oh, fraud rocker does.

00:50:17 Iain

To you, they're links too.

00:50:19 Merrily

I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.

00:50:23 Merrily

Something like that.

00:50:24 Iain

Yeah, they work together, yeah.

00:50:25 Iain

Something like that, yeah.

00:50:28 Merrily

Well, cool. Let's see, I have.

00:50:32 Merrily

OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.

00:50:46 Merrily

There my question.

00:50:48 Iain

Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.

00:50:52 Iain

I found that they are.

00:50:55 Iain

Used to usually break someone out of what's.

00:50:59 Iain

I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.

00:51:10 Iain

Sort of.

00:51:11 Iain

Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.

00:51:21 Iain

In it but he.

00:51:23 Iain

He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.

00:51:34 Iain

Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.

00:51:54 Iain

Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.

00:52:06 Iain

Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.

00:52:25 Iain

Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.

00:52:32 Merrily

MM.

00:52:45 Iain

Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.

00:52:54 Iain

Up and.

00:52:55 Iain

Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.

00:53:05 Iain

I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.

00:53:13 Iain

You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.

00:53:16 Iain

Go up, up.

00:53:17 Iain

Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.

00:53:19 Iain

They you.

00:53:20 Iain

Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.

00:53:22 Iain

Can imagine you.

00:53:23 Iain

Know. Imagine it's just on on.

00:53:24 Iain

The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.

00:53:32 Iain

Above to it.

00:53:33 Iain

Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.

00:53:41 Iain

So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.

00:54:02 Iain

So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.

00:54:13 Iain

It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.

00:54:16 Merrily

Right.

00:54:33 Iain

You know, often you find it to be the most.

00:54:36 Iain

The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.

00:54:49 Iain

It can it.

00:54:49 Iain

Can it even just?

00:54:50 Iain

Be something like movies as well.

00:54:52 Iain

Or any pop culture. A lot of you.

00:54:54 Iain

Know that's why art.

00:54:56 Iain

Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.

00:55:06 Merrily

Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.

00:55:12 Merrily

Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.

00:55:26 Merrily

American boy of a certain tribe, you.

00:55:28 Merrily

Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?

00:55:33 Merrily

Few days or whatever.

00:55:34 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

00:55:35 Merrily

And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.

00:55:46 Merrily

Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.

00:56:06 Merrily

That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.

00:56:15 Merrily

Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.

00:56:28

Yeah, yeah.

00:56:31 Iain

Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.

00:56:40 Iain

This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.

00:57:01 Iain

Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.

00:57:11 Merrily

Right.

00:57:12 Iain

You know, so I think it's a big part of what?

00:57:15 Iain

Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.

00:57:23 Iain

The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.

00:57:35 Merrily

Right.

00:57:36 Iain

And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.

00:57:41 Iain

Most like most.

00:57:42 Iain

Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.

00:57:46 Iain

Of it, they've been.

00:57:47 Iain

Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.

00:57:52 Merrily

I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.

00:58:13 Merrily

Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.

00:58:23 Merrily

Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.

00:58:35 Merrily

To kind of figure it.

00:58:35 Merrily

Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.

00:58:43 Iain

Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.

00:58:49 Iain

I want to share.

00:58:51 Iain

You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.

00:58:56

Right.

00:58:57 Iain

You know it's.

00:59:01 Iain

It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.

00:59:13 Iain

As a loose.

00:59:13 Iain

Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.

00:59:15 Merrily

Right.

00:59:21 Iain

I'm going.

00:59:21 Iain

Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.

00:59:24 Iain

Bit you know it's.

00:59:25 Iain

Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.

00:59:31 Iain

Books and stuff.

00:59:32 Iain

It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.

00:59:35 Iain

Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.

00:59:37 Merrily

Over there now. Me too. Yeah.

00:59:40 Iain

I will falter.

00:59:41 Iain

And working on it.

00:59:43 Merrily

Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?

00:59:49 Iain

Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.

00:59:51 Merrily

It here you drew on.

00:59:53 Iain

In my cash box is the four.

00:59:56 Iain

Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.

00:59:57 Merrily

Oh, nice.

01:00:16 Iain

Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.

01:00:23 Iain

It, you know, obviously on Thursday.

01:00:25

You know that.

01:00:25 Merrily

Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.

01:00:27 Iain

The success stories.

01:00:29 Iain

Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.

01:00:31 Merrily

I know.

01:00:31 Iain

Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.

01:00:43 Merrily

Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.

01:00:46 Merrily

Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.

01:00:50 Iain

Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.

01:00:53 Iain

I got. I thought I'd be happy.

01:00:55 Iain

With hard to like.

01:00:56 Iain

No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.

01:00:59 Iain

They're so great to hold.

01:01:00 Iain

Oh, I can't help it.

01:01:02 Merrily

I love that Jupiter energy.

01:01:04 Merrily

That did this book impact your magical practice?

01:01:08 Iain

I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.

01:01:13

You know.

01:01:15 Iain

Yeah, it hasn't really.

01:01:18 Iain

It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.

01:01:24 Iain

When it just sort of helps loosen.

01:01:26 Iain

The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.

01:01:34 Iain

Evidence like that will fairy shoe.

01:01:38 Iain

Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.

01:01:43 Iain

Chew on that, yeah.

01:01:44

Yeah, yeah.

01:01:46 Iain

Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?

01:01:52 Iain

Middle of nowhere.

01:01:53 Iain

Yeah, you know, it's.

01:01:54 Iain

Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.

01:02:03 Iain

Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.

01:02:03

That's right.

01:02:06 Iain

Found you know, off the beaten path, you.

01:02:08 Iain

Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?

01:02:10 Iain

And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.

01:02:20 Iain

Of it in.

01:02:21 Iain

The book, you know. So it's just like.

01:02:22 Iain

Explain that you know. And so that's.

01:02:25 Iain

And and you can't and that's sort.

01:02:27 Iain

Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.

01:02:30 Iain

Crop circles and so.

01:02:33 Iain

For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.

01:02:39 Iain

Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.

01:02:46 Iain

Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.

01:03:07 Iain

As far as his conclusions about how.

01:03:12 Iain

I'm not sure you know.

01:03:13 Iain

Like it, I don't know.

01:03:15 Merrily

If I agree.

01:03:16 Iain

With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.

01:03:30 Iain

I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.

01:03:35 Iain

But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.

01:03:54 Iain

Ultimately all these.

01:03:56 Iain

You know all the events he gives in the.

01:03:58 Iain

Book, you know, happen to one person.

01:04:00 Iain

Most of the time you.

01:04:01 Merrily

Right.

01:04:01 Iain

Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.

01:04:14 Iain

Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.

01:04:26 Iain

Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.

01:04:45 Merrily

Right.

01:04:46 Iain

That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.

01:05:02 Merrily

Right.

01:05:04 Iain

Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.

01:05:14 Iain

Them, you know like.

01:05:15 Iain

It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.

01:05:24 Iain

Underneath the.

01:05:25 Merrily

Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.

01:05:45 Merrily

But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.

01:05:54 Iain

Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.

01:06:10 Iain

Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.

01:06:20 Iain

Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.

01:06:31 Iain

But that's.

01:06:33 Iain

An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.

01:06:43 Iain

Personal and then.

01:06:44 Iain

A bit more believable at the.

01:06:45 Iain

Same time and so.

01:06:48 Iain

That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.

01:06:55 Iain

Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.

01:07:09 Iain

I feel it.

01:07:10 Iain

I feel like I.

01:07:11 Iain

Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.

01:07:14 Iain

Have had.

01:07:15 Iain

Very dreamlike nature to.

01:07:18 Merrily

Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.

01:07:19 Merrily

Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.

01:07:24 Iain

Oh I.

01:07:25 Iain

I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.

01:07:28 Iain

Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.

01:07:29 Merrily

No, you were great. No, you're great.

01:07:33 Merrily

So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.

01:07:47 Merrily

That you've been enjoying lately, that.

01:07:48 Merrily

You'd like to share?

01:07:52 Iain

Well, I'm just. I'm the.

01:07:53 Iain

Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.

01:07:58 Iain

That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.

01:08:10 Iain

World you experience.

01:08:11 Iain

And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?

01:08:18 Iain

Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.

01:08:32 Iain

Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.

01:08:52 Iain

You know, especially as a society will get.

01:08:55 Iain

It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.

01:09:12 Iain

Gospel of meditation.

01:09:14 Iain

That's it.

01:09:15 Iain

It's meditate. Learn silence.

01:09:20 Iain

Know where you are.

01:09:23 Iain

Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.

01:09:44 Iain

It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.

01:09:55 Iain

You know, just knowing.

01:09:57 Iain

Where you are.

01:09:59 Iain

Be aligned to the directions and just.

01:10:04 Iain

And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.

01:10:07

That's just fine.

01:10:08 Iain

Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.

01:10:18 Iain

You know.

01:10:19 Iain

Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.

01:10:24 Merrily

Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.

01:10:35 Merrily

Of blew my mind a little.

01:10:35 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:37 Iain

That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.

01:10:39 Iain

Cause it's like why did?

01:10:39 Iain

I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.

01:10:43 Iain

That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.

01:10:44 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:49 Iain

Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.

01:10:54 Iain

Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.

01:11:14 Iain

Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.

01:11:31 Iain

Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.

01:11:34 Merrily

Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.

01:11:40 Iain

That sounds.

01:11:41 Merrily

Cells, yeah.

01:11:44 Merrily

So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?

01:11:53 Iain

Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.

01:12:04 Iain

King Rainbow 8.

01:12:06 Iain

All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.

01:12:22 Merrily

Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.

01:12:37

Yeah, yeah, I.

01:12:38 Iain

Appreciate that. Thank you.

01:12:40

Thank you.

01:12:44 Merrily

That was the discussion of the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper with left hand magical practitioner Ian Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Ian on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.

01:12:54 Merrily

Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely new episodes of the casual.

01:13:04 Merrily

Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.

01:13:16 Merrily

Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Tempo podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.

udio file

EP07_Casual Temple_Iain Shelley_2023-09-12.mp3

Transcript

00:00:00 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter. It's it's it is. It's engineered early on in.

00:00:08 Iain

Our lives and it's.

00:00:10 Iain

Very firm, you know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, you know? And it's it, it's allowed the western world to flourish as it did, of course you.

00:00:18 Iain

Know but and.

00:00:20 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this is it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kaliyuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just the weight of materialism is starting to crush us. I think as we can all sort of see.

00:00:25 Merrily

Right.

00:00:41 Merrily

This is the Casual Template podcast, and you're listening to episode #7 and I'm your host, Marilee Duffy. The casual temple is a place to discuss the many ways we are connected to the unseen world and how that empowers us to know our true selves. This week, my guest is Ian.

00:00:56 Merrily

Kelly, who joins the podcast to discuss the book Demonic Real.

00:00:59 Merrily

Body by Patrick Harper, which is a book that explains Harper's theories that we are living in and amongst demons who are desperately trying to grab our attention to get us to remember who we really are. Ian is a fellow occult practitioner and esoteric book enthusiast, so he gives some wonderful book recommendations in her discussion. You will also get to know what a ghost raccoon is, so you don't want to miss it.

00:01:20 Merrily

Thank you all for joining us here at the casual temple. Our guest today is Ian Shelley, who is a fellow magic practitioner who's exploring the left hand path, and he's also a busy small business owner who's on the move of existing here in Melkus. Ian is joining me today to review and discuss the book demonic reality by Patrick Harper, which I will hold up the.

00:01:40 Merrily

Look, without the dust cover.

00:01:43 Merrily

Cause none of us.

00:01:43 Merrily

Like that.

00:01:44 Iain

I don't mine doesn't have it either, no.

00:01:47 Iain

I should grab it actually.

00:01:49 Merrily

If you want to grab this book, mine also has lots of colorful tabs because I took many notes because it's an amazing book. So just so the audience is aware, and I'll also point out if you.

00:02:02 Merrily

To read, get the copy of the book right there, it says my name right on the, you know, right in there it's.

00:02:11 Merrily

Tuning just so you know.

00:02:11 Iain

I know no. What is?

00:02:12 Iain

Up with that every I.

00:02:13 Iain

Forgot about it. You know, when I.

00:02:15 Iain

Reread it this.

00:02:15 Iain

Time this show I forgot and I saw it again. It was just a surprising. That's the first time, actually a little more because.

00:02:23 Iain

They had this.

00:02:24 Iain

Connection and that we both kind of talked about it. So yeah, I don't know the explanation behind that, but it's funnier.

00:02:29 Merrily

I looked into it.

00:02:31 Iain

Ohh well, the explanation is not as good is it?

00:02:34 Merrily

Right. I mean, no, it's I.

00:02:35 Iain

The demonic interpretation, I say would be is more fun to you.

00:02:35 Merrily

Mean it's.

00:02:39 Iain

Know it's to you.

00:02:40 Merrily

I agree. I think it's to me it's really to his sister. I'm going to.

00:02:41

OK.

00:02:43 Iain

Oh yes.

00:02:44 Merrily

Say it's.

00:02:45 Iain

This is primarily makes sense.

00:02:47 Merrily

Yes. So I'm just going to call this right now to the listeners that this is I guess it's like a casual.

00:02:54 Merrily

Or casual temple book club episode. So I'm just going to read the intro to demonic reality for those who aren't familiar, a little synopsis. So demonic reality, a field guide to the other world by Patrick Harper was published in 1992, and it's in the same vein as passport to Magonia.

00:03:13 Merrily

By Jacques Ballet, some of you might be familiar with that book that was published in 1969. Both authors are attempting to describe the overlapping similarities of paranormal experiences, such as seeing the undead, ghosts, fairies, UFOs, aliens, etc.

00:03:31 Merrily

Where valets work was more of a catalog. Harper differs in offering more like he has, like really good writing skills and is a really good storyteller. I don't personally, I don't feel valet shares that in my opinion, and so just for the listeners and viewers, the book is separated into 3 sections.

00:03:43 Iain

OK.

00:03:51 Merrily

Apparitions, visions and Otherworld journeys. So the working theory is the title of the book that we are all living in demonic reality all the time, and that demons are getting impatient for us to notice.

00:04:05 Merrily

Them. There it is.

00:04:09 Merrily

So what do you think, Ian? I'm happy that you wanted to chat about this, but what is your sort of take overall take, I guess.

00:04:16 Merrily

On the book.

00:04:17 Iain

Yeah, I I enjoyed the book a lot the first time I read it, and I've had this fun tour of going through books. I started when I was closer to the first.

00:04:28 Iain

To the beginning of my practice or cult reading before I got largely addicted to all the books I have now, when I was still fairly early on, you know when.

00:04:37 Iain

We were in the when that foolish 5th server.

00:04:40 Iain

It was recommended then and.

00:04:43 Iain

The change in how I've interpreted it has it's been pretty and just my understanding really and being.

00:04:51 Iain

Able to accept.

00:04:52 Iain

Multiple truths at the same time, and it's basically being not being obsessed with explanations, rational ones, fully logical ones. The the satisfying.

00:05:04 Iain

Funds we've all grown up and.

00:05:06 Iain

Almost come to feel entitled to, and so I think a lot of apparitions, you know, Patrick definitely agrees a lot of the things that events or apparitions that happen to people are direct results of our need to explain, fully explain and grasp and be able to hold it, you know, and measure it. And you know, but.

00:05:26 Iain

A lot of these.

00:05:27 Iain

Events are just direct taunts to them.

00:05:29 Iain

Reflex and getting over it.

00:05:33 Iain

Has been a long process and learning different magical systems like, you know, Kabbalah, the tree of Life, tarot having all this encyclopedic.

00:05:44 Iain

System, you know, working system in your head and having and understanding it deeply. So we're just kind of operates on a subconscious level. It's taken a long time relatively. I mean I'm, you know, not that old, but you know we've been doing this for, I don't know, like 4:00-ish years something like that. But you know like the the changes in Psyche.

00:06:04 Iain

I would say demonic psyche, you know, developing it, you know, it just happens over time. It's not something you really notice.

00:06:13 Iain

You know, day-to-day or something.

00:06:15 Iain

Yeah, it's not linear progression. It's just saying it sort of happens by, you know, osmosis almost and just a willingness, A definite willingness to let go is definitely letting go of, you know, concreteness where you just let the other worldly.

00:06:32 Iain

Aspects you know seep in and without you know, this reflexive judgment that would basically make them disappear.

00:06:39 Merrily

Right.

00:06:40 Iain

You know, the moment you try, you know, a lot of that stuff, you know, you get these strong feelings or, you know, these presences. And then the moment you instantly try to explain it, it just disappears. You know, it just kind of goes. And so you have to try.

00:06:55 Iain

I mean, I I think I'm always gonna do it, but it's just recognizing.

00:06:57 Iain

It When it happens and then.

00:06:59 Iain

You know, feeling the feeling, the interplay between the two reflexes of, you know, the Apollonian, you know, Apollo, you know, he's from afar, he's logical, you know, he's cold, you know, the he's W, you know, the Western mind basically, you know this, you know, the empirical need the science and all that.

00:07:19 Iain

Versus the more you know, Diane.

00:07:25 Iain

Emotional, emotive, sensual. You know demonic. You know, interpretations have being able to hold both those mindsets simultaneously, I think. And you know, they like reality. None of this is really understandable with the Apollonian mindset fully. And I think that's when.

00:07:44 Iain

That's the one I came in with first. You know, as I was still more unable to.

00:07:50 Iain

Understand. And so now the second time around it's been I've been able to hold 2 truths and being able to.

00:07:57 Iain

Experience it.

00:07:59 Iain

With Patrick has been very fulfilling. I've liked it a lot.

00:08:03 Iain

The second time around.

00:08:04 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I totally on board with sort of sort of being new and having the Apollonian mindset. When I first read it and then now just having crazy experiences and exactly what you said like experiencing weird timelines and apparitions and the reality and you're like.

00:08:26 Iain

Yeah, it takes some definite, you know, it embodied. So yeah. Gotta feel you have to feel it in your yourself, you know, the embodiment, the embodied experience is very important. And it's something that I probably haven't had as much, you know.

00:08:31 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:08:42 Iain

I don't get the.

00:08:45 Iain

You know, as far as direct experiences?

00:08:47 Iain

You know what?

00:08:48 Iain

Are my experiences like, you know, I've always I've thought about. I've read the young, young well. I've read in his read book. But you know his theory. You know of the integration, you know, of, of parts of yourself that you over press and then.

00:09:04 Iain

And we'll.

00:09:05 Iain

Crop up, you know later, you know, crop up in your consciousness if you suppress them too long, you know they'll go wild. You know, you know, that sort of thing. And he says, like, if you're decently integrated, you're not gonna really have these visions of things within yourself. And that's just that doesn't. That's not as fun.

00:09:10 Merrily

Right.

00:09:25 Iain

You know he he describes this patient who would see, you know, like these orbs, you know, these like orbs by her curtains floating. And she's like, oh, these are externalized traumas or whatever. It's just kind of like, yeah, but that's that's cool as well. She gets to see things and, you know, I haven't really.

00:09:37

OK.

00:09:40 Iain

I I don't see things not without chemical assistance, you know, or something like that. You know, it's it's a it's a more, it's more deep intuitive sense that I've developed as far As for my own direct experiences. It's trusting intuition a lot, and it's maybe if I don't hear voices in my head.

00:09:45

Right.

00:10:01 Iain

You know, like I keep waiting you.

00:10:02 Iain

Know for the holy.

00:10:02 Iain

Guardian Angel or, you know, the personal.

00:10:03 Merrily

Right.

00:10:05 Iain

You know Damon to come in and talk to me. I I might. I don't. You know, I haven't had that, but I definitely can sort of think, you know, some voices in your head. You know, I think, you know all the time and sometimes some of the voices seem more profound than.

00:10:20 Iain

Others. Yeah. You know, learning to parse just, you know, your thoughts versus.

00:10:24 Iain

Maybe some external thoughts coming in and maybe some inspirations of some kind that aren't directly yours is trying to be able to figure out which is which.

00:10:31 Merrily

OK.

00:10:35 Iain

And so it's been a bit more of a.

00:10:39 Iain

Of passive experience and I guess I would love to be trying the more ceremonial solomonic, you know, conjurations and stuff. But it's a it's a space issue and it's a.

00:10:52 Merrily

Right.

00:10:54 Iain

You know it's, it's practicality. But you know, I'm also just kind of lying about, you know, I could do it if I really wanted to. Yeah, simply fear aspects. But it's something I would be interested in. But managing expectations also, I think, has been very important because.

00:11:11 Iain

If you come up with a certain mice, especially with pop culture and stuff with.

00:11:15 Iain

What you could?

00:11:16 Iain

Do you know? Like I said, with Solomonic Conjurations, you know, you do everything and you expect to see the demon sitting in the.

00:11:23 Iain

Triangle you know and it's.

00:11:25 Iain

It's not. He's not gonna be squatting there like an 8. You know, it's it's going to be something, you know you have to do it over and over again.

00:11:27 Merrily

Right.

00:11:32 Iain

Work is open to a bit of a frenzy. Maybe you don't eat that day. You know, you kind of get yourself into a state. But.

00:11:42 Iain

As far as yeah, I can't keep going back to that, but personal experience has just been it's been mostly with keeping consistent as consistent as I.

00:11:52 Iain

Can practice.

00:11:55

And that's the.

00:11:55 Iain

Challenge about Trump against that elevator.

00:11:58 Merrily

Yeah, for sure. That's funny that you were mentioning the Solomonic limitations of space because most of the recommendations is not to do it.

00:12:06 Merrily

In your house, right?

00:12:08 Iain

Yeah, there you go.

00:12:10 Iain

Yeah, I mean.

00:12:10 Iain

I could. Yeah, I could do.

00:12:12 Iain

It outside. I've got some space.

00:12:13 Iain

I could imagine.

00:12:14 Iain

Yeah. And I like a place I like to give offerings to and outside, you know, place like that, but.

00:12:21 Iain

Yeah, but it's also intimidating.

00:12:23 Merrily

Yes. Yeah, it's a little.

00:12:24 Merrily

Like Ohh, we'll work up to that.

00:12:26 Iain

Yeah, yeah, but I need to.

00:12:30 Iain

It sounds exciting.

00:12:30 Merrily

So so I know that in our sort of like a little bit of pre chat that we did in discord, we talked you mentioned the soul world and the animal mundi, can you like I have.

00:12:40 Iain

Yes. Yeah.

00:12:43 Merrily

Patrick Harper's sort of the definition of it. But do you do you have a good handle on that yourself that you want?

00:12:50

To share, yeah.

00:12:53 Iain

Yeah. So.

00:12:55 Iain

I oftentimes when I try to think of how I define things I keep getting. I just think of the author of who I learned it from. A lot of the time. I get a lot of. It's not imposter syndrome cause I'm not pretending to be anything, you know particularly, you know, it's like. But it's not like impostor syndrome where it's like, is any of this knowledge, you know?

00:13:14 Iain

It's just stuff I I read and I could just regurgitate so it's like how much choice do I actually understand? But that's just something. But I can give my definition. I just I can. I can always just think of who I've.

00:13:27 Iain

Learned this.

00:13:27 Iain

Stuff from. Yeah. And I wonder how much of.

00:13:30 Iain

It but yeah so.

00:13:32 Iain

The I'm just gonna go right here with young. It's a collective unconscious.

00:13:38 Iain

Psychologically, I think it's the easiest way. I think that least way to explain it. You know some loose psychological aspects, especially for, I guess, most people I guess not familiar with some more esoteric stuff. So it's yeah, the collective unconscious it was, you know, it's the also known as the soul of the world.

00:13:59 Iain

It's this.

00:14:00 Iain

It's it's not formless, but it's of infinite form and it's, you know, it's people also refer to it as you know, the black dragon, the demiurgic mass, that's so I've.

00:14:12 Iain

Been also getting it together. Inscrutable, completely inscrutable. Black Dragon series by Andrew, not Andrew.

00:14:20 Iain

Peter Hammerton Giles is stuff I've been struggling to grasp. I've been trying to apply to it with this sort of.

00:14:28 Iain

It's the. Yeah. So it's. I'm sorry. Collective unconscious. It's it's where the archetypes live, you know, it's where the I'm also getting to Austin Osman spare. It's the it's the sea of. It's where the primordial. It's live. It's where the you know.

00:14:33 Merrily

Right.

00:14:43 Iain

These, you know, these primal drives of hunger, you know, sex, you know.

00:14:47 Iain

Even shelter they you know, it's.

00:14:51 Iain

It's where all these desires come from, and they sort of they get to express themselves through us or through, you know, any creature really. But that's they get to experience experience through limitation, you know. So in the, in the soul, you know.

00:15:08 Iain

In the.

00:15:10 Iain

In the collective unconscious.

00:15:13 Iain

It's just exists as is without time, and it needs to go within time to be embodied in order to experience. And so I think that's how so the interplay between the unconscious world and conscious.

00:15:27 Merrily

Yeah, I.

00:15:28 Iain

It's very hard to define.

00:15:30 Merrily

It is hard to define like it is because I agree with that the way the way Patrick Harper did it, because I'm very much about like I got.

00:15:39 Merrily

To put things.

00:15:40 Merrily

In I know this is the logic Apollonian thing, but I'm.

00:15:44 Merrily

Like I gotta. I gotta.

00:15:44

And now we.

00:15:44 Iain

Have to be able to do both. Yeah, it's it's so hard. I know.

00:15:48 Merrily

It's super hard.

00:15:49 Merrily

So he so he kind of puts it in these, I think of things of like as in containers, right, he's basically.

00:15:55 Merrily

Like the human soul. So he's his explanation is the soul world or Anima. Mundi is where the human soul is mediated between the spirit and the body. So it's kind of saying that there's more souls for you. There's more forms of you that are sort of like existing.

00:16:14 Merrily

And so that's kind of where it where that's at and that is also like if if if I'm thinking about like containers like the you know, the collective unconscious is basically like one container that we're all a part of or like something that we can tap into exactly what you were saying.

00:16:31 Merrily

But then you said and then you mentioned and now I'm like, I'm gonna have to take notes about the book you mentioned. So you said the black dragon. Is that like a note talking about Nosism?

00:16:39 Merrily

Is that what that's going into?

00:16:41 Iain

Yeah. Well, it's it's about exploring non being through just basically it's exploring non being you know and the only way we can explore it.

00:16:52 Iain

Is with words and.

00:16:53 Iain

You know, experience or whatever. So that's it's sort of how it's or it's the interplay between.

00:16:59 Iain

Being and non being is way of interacting with the foremost, the formless and form full void and it's a.

00:17:07 Iain

And it's explored through the, you know, archetypal image of of a dragon of the Black Dragon, which carries a lot of, you know, biblical implications. It's very strong, archetypal imagery used to explore these ideas, and it's got a long tradition with.

00:17:27 Iain

You know that extremely expensive Black Dragon book I've I've always been chasing on eBay. The Andrew Chumbley, along with the Zosha. You know, it's a long explored tradition, I guess you.

00:17:40 Iain

Of the old company of cunning folk, you know, and the Dragons column, I guess. You know, over in England it's the tradition, you know, it's a sort of. It feels like it's a current of witchcraft, you know, of cunning folk, witchcraft, which is, you know, they're trying to either revive.

00:17:59 Iain

Or you know.

00:18:00 Iain

Continue that. You know, this tradition very inscrutable from the outside, but. And so, yeah, the black dragon, just this it's about.

00:18:12 Iain

You could basically call the collective unconscious. You know it's it's a it's a.

00:18:16 Iain

Form of that you know of carrying all forms within itself.

00:18:20 Iain

But not at the same time you know both with.

00:18:23 Iain

And without form.

00:18:25 Merrily

Cool. Yeah, it seems like it's a good companion. So this particular book. So now I'm like I I gotta figure out how to get my copy and read.

00:18:33 Merrily

It that's cool.

00:18:33 Iain

Yes, well, what was what's been actually helping with this one is is fodder occurs works, his goetic works, I find, you know his his interactions with this you know with.

00:18:47 Iain

This sort of.

00:18:49 Iain

Material demonic as he does with Holy Damon in his series. You know he's I think he's.

00:18:56 Iain

A very good.

00:18:57 Iain

His material is very good to work with as.

00:18:59 Iain

Well, in accompaniment.

00:19:00 Iain

With us, yeah.

00:19:02 Merrily

Yeah, I agree with that. I pretty sure I have one of his books. I have not started yet. Of course I read Holy Daemon and then like his latest book. But yeah, I gotta finish up.

00:19:12 Merrily

That series.

00:19:12 Iain

40 heretics, yeah.

00:19:12 Merrily

Ticks. Holy hair ticks. Yeah.

00:19:14 Merrily

Yeah, I guess we'll just kind of get into sort of the personal aspect for you and you know, so as an occult and magic practitioner, have you had your own experience, personal experiences with either your own personal daemon or just demonic reality? In particular, if you'd like to share?

00:19:32 Iain

Yeah, a phrase I've come to it's it's I've crystallized it is is the ghost raccoon and it's like I think of frequently is just way too.

00:19:46 Iain

Keep my reality reality tunnel as you know, keep my my apple only reflex. You know, a little loose. Is that you know when I was.

00:19:55

If I was.

00:19:56 Iain

At a time, you know, when I was driving.

00:19:59 Iain

You could be just driving past a A.

00:20:01 Iain

Street, you know.

00:20:01 Iain

At night you just pass a.

00:20:03 Iain

Street and you look down it. You glance down it as you drive.

00:20:07 Iain

You know, and you just see this, you see a raccoon, you know, and that raccoon.

00:20:12 Iain

'S real to you?

00:20:13 Iain

Could be just a plastic bag.

00:20:17 Iain

Could be not real at all, but the point is that that raccoon but that raccoon exists for you as real as anything else.

00:20:24 Iain

Especially for your memory, you drove by raccoon. That raccoon exists as far as this free, especially if you start.

00:20:28 Iain

Telling people about it.

00:20:30 Iain

Then that's real to a bunch of.

00:20:31 Iain

Other people too.

00:20:32 Iain

So it's just like, you know it's it's, you know, a version of the games.

00:20:36 Iain

Telephone. Basically where?

00:20:37 Iain

Yeah, and it becomes accepted that it becomes accepted that that raccoon existed.

00:20:42 Iain

For me, you know people and that's, you know, it's a. So I just think it keeps, you know, so I think of those ghosts because it's, you know, very well didn't exist at all. But you can't be.

00:20:50 Iain

Sure. And so it's just both being able to live in both worlds and accepts, you know, both possibilities, but that's as far as you know as.

00:20:51 Merrily

Right.

00:21:03 Iain

Demonic reality.

00:21:05 Iain

Is just being able to.

00:21:07 Iain

Not live in a Euclidian world of just, you know, living on a plane with the plate going from place to place. You know, I think of, you know, life is a is a series of experiences in a bodied stories.

00:21:20 Iain

You know, so like, every every trip, you know every you know with my job and we go down across the state to, you know, do my craft, you know, serve the kettle corn and all, you know, the traveling, you know, it's it's, you know, you kind of feel like.

00:21:37 Iain

You know, traveling with Mercury on his chariot, you know, down along the highways, you know, you sort of romanticized the experiences. You know, I don't really, you know, interstates and travel becomes a form of time travel because you don't really, you're not consciously act, you know.

00:21:53 Iain

You're not consciously aware of that time. Often when you travel down it and.

00:21:59 Iain

And that leads into the UFO discussion actually about lost time. It was actually how I was able to most easily grasp, you know, a lot of these experiences, people had that Patrick talks about, you know, about people a lot of times people when they're driving it's about you know a lot of this lost time.

00:22:18 Merrily

That's right.

00:22:18 Iain

Aspect which we can.

00:22:19 Iain

All relate to.

00:22:22 Iain

You know, just feeling where you just kind of snap to and.

00:22:24 Iain

Realize I have been paying attention for the past 15 minutes. I don't know what's happened, but I'm safe, you know? And it's, you know, and it's. But in time goes on. And so it's those so like exploring those times where you're in these little areas like the roads, you know, especially traveling, especially at night.

00:22:44 Iain

Where your consciousness is in A is in a limited place as well.

00:22:48 Iain

Where these events?

00:22:49 Iain

Happen. And so we are hearing about the stuff where you could just sort of where they just find themselves further down the road with this lost time in their heads and then later on.

00:22:59 Iain

They'll get the.

00:23:01 Iain

Hypnotherapy to figure out exactly what happened, and they'll find all these crazy, wacky stories, you know.

00:23:07 Iain

About UFOs and finding, you know about what goes.

00:23:11 Iain

On in that and.

00:23:12 Iain

You know, the question is, did this happen? You know like?

00:23:16 Merrily

Yeah, I think he talks about it is like, well, he talks about the mechanics of what's happening. He says it's like you're hypnotized, right? You're basically hypnotized driving, which I thought was interesting. Yeah.

00:23:26 Iain

Yeah, can you can't enter that flow state sort of. Yeah. And so I guess if you go into that hip, you know when they he, he tells stories about when people visit hypnotherapists just figure out what happened during these supposed abductions. They come up with these rich stories, you know, so Patrick's explanations, you know, that he says.

00:23:46 Iain

That these stories come from the collective unconscious about these, you know archetypes, it's about.

00:23:52 Iain

You know, oftentimes UFOs, it's about what's foreign or about what's different or, you know, like in the 50s, you know, it's about these.

00:24:00 Iain

Beautiful beings. These beautiful, luminous ropes beings and the 60s, as our fear of technology grew, they started to become these.

00:24:09 Iain

Technology, you know, centered beings, you know, the little green, you know, little Gray men focused on, you know, exploration of.

00:24:18 Iain

Our bodies, you know, with science and stuff, it's so that you can tell if you accept the premise that.

00:24:24 Iain

These, you know, UFOs change according to our cultural fears.

00:24:29 Iain

Or, you know, or embody, you know, yeah. Embody. Cheers.

00:24:34 Merrily

Yeah, I think that's I I didn't think of it in that logical of a pattern that you just put put in. It made me think about how recently in ufology like some of the.

00:24:45 Merrily

Some of the discussions I've heard about what the Grays are, and I is one that I heard that was really cool like.

00:24:51 Merrily

Somebody talked about.

00:24:52 Merrily

His Gray abduction.

00:24:54 Merrily

Experience. But he felt like the Grays weren't were being like, how did? How did he explain it like the actual? It's like a suit, but it's being remote, like controlled far, far away by like a consciousness. And I was like, whoa, that's totally crazy. And then probably.

00:25:14 Merrily

The other explanation that I've heard recently, you probably have also heard this is like, oh, they're just like future humans, right, coming back. And we're all, like, weird looking. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I saw.

00:25:22 Iain

Yeah, I saw interstellar.

00:25:26 Merrily

That movie.

00:25:29 Merrily

But I think like in the progression of how you laid it out, it's like, yeah, those are sort of.

00:25:33 Merrily

Our fears, right, but that.

00:25:35 Merrily

We're going to become some sort of weird.

00:25:37 Merrily

Sexless nutless thing or whatever? Yeah.

00:25:41 Iain

Yeah, it's been very, you know, the the different forms they take and it's like it's, you know, speculating well, what's what's next thing, because I feel like the, you know, the alien archetypes been going for a while, you know, cause they sort.

00:25:57 Iain

Of follows the between what?

00:26:01 Iain

First, you know they seems to come from below, you know, as demons and you know devils, because that's what people determined to be well before it was just the underworld. And now our underworld is kind.

00:26:15 Iain

Of is is, is.

00:26:16 Iain

Out of.

00:26:17 Iain

Space. Yeah. And so they, you know, that's what they instead of coming.

00:26:20 Iain

From below, they now come from above.

00:26:23 Iain

So it'll be interesting to see if there's a different place I can come.

00:26:25 Iain

From next.

00:26:27 Merrily

Well, it's probably I think the different the next place is you and I are probably familiar with like inner dimensions and things like that. But I think the public.

00:26:37 Merrily

At large.

00:26:37 Iain

I was thinking that.

00:26:38 Merrily

Yeah, is becoming more accepting of unders of that.

00:26:43 Merrily

And so we're probably hearing more around.

00:26:47 Merrily

Interdimensional beings from like I don't want to put put this in like a negative connotation, but like regular people, right? Who are having experiences.

00:26:55 Iain

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, so.

00:26:59 Iain

Alex is what's letting us all do it.

00:27:01 Iain

Really. Is this this new?

00:27:02 Merrily

That's true.

00:27:05 Iain

This new age of acceptability with psychedelics is definitely.

00:27:09 Iain

Opening up some minds and.

00:27:11 Iain

Accepting some realities? Yeah as well.

00:27:14 Merrily

So we I asked you about your own sort of personal experience with demons. Do you know of anybody connected to you personally? I mean you don't have to share names or anything like that, but that has had like an experience that they really.

00:27:32 Iain

You know, I I don't. I can't say I have not saying nothing.

00:27:39 Iain

Nothing profound. I mean, there's probably a lot of stories that just kind of fade into the background, which is a Kevin aspect of them, is that the only way we can sort of carry on?

00:27:50 Iain

And sane. And you know in.

00:27:53 Iain

This reality, if it, if so, if it is true that you know all these crazy apparitions, happenings can happen is that.

00:28:00 Iain

You know, we just sort of have this filtering technique of our memory where crazy things going to happen, but we have this sort of just normal see filter. So your brain just kind of smooths it over and just yeah, and it just kind of well it's it's all, it's the Apollonia reflex as well where you just kind of like even if you can't think of the explanation just kind of like you trust.

00:28:09 Merrily

Yep. Like Nope.

00:28:19 Iain

That there is one.

00:28:20 Merrily

Right.

00:28:21 Iain

It's kind of, you know, like.

00:28:21 Iain

Even if I can't think of it, it's like.

00:28:23 Iain

Well, it's probably swamp.

00:28:23 Iain

Gas Cause swamp gas this.

00:28:26 Iain

Is a thing.

00:28:27 Iain

You know that if you swap gas.

00:28:30 Iain

You know like.

00:28:31 Iain

Ohh OK yeah. Swap gas. Yeah, but.

00:28:35 Iain

As far as you know, lots of ghost stories. Of course, I think lots of local legends as well. I can think of. Yeah, definitely lots of, you know, local urban legends, which Patrick loves covering as well. You know, they, you know, they're they're demonic nature. Urban legends, you know, along with hoaxes. You know, that that they they all share in this.

00:28:59 Iain

Phenomenon. You know, things that even if people are fake, even if people are faking them, that comes from somewhere, it's like, yeah.

00:28:59 Merrily

Right.

00:29:05 Iain

I found that interesting.

00:29:05 Iain

As well.

00:29:06 Iain

Yeah, but.

00:29:07 Merrily

So what I was gonna relay with that is my own personal experience in my family. So my mother is Filipino, and so she would tell me this.

00:29:17 Merrily

Story of her.

00:29:19 Merrily

Her grandmother, her name was Danisha.

00:29:21 Merrily

And her she would tell me. Oh, yeah, my grandmother would warn all of us, like the whole family do not go into that bamboo forest without asking me first. And then they were like, OK. And then of course, and a great uncle or an uncle of mine.

00:29:37 Merrily

Goes into the forest without asking grandma Dionisia.

00:29:41 Merrily

1st and he breaks his leg, right goes in the force, breaks his leg.

00:29:47 Merrily

And then so she was like, damn it. And then he gets sick, too. He gets, like, violently sick. So grandma dija, of course, like cusses him out about going to the forest.

00:29:57 Iain

She knew, right?

00:29:58 Merrily

And then yes and.

00:29:59 Merrily

Then so she had to go with like a.

00:30:01 Merrily

Pile like of.

00:30:02 Merrily

Food and offerings and go into the forest and she had to talk for hours.

00:30:06 Merrily

Into that forest.

00:30:08 Iain

Ohh man.

00:30:08 Merrily

To like get.

00:30:09 Merrily

To heal her son, I guess. And it worked.

00:30:13 Merrily

Apparently, according to my mom.

00:30:14 Iain

Very tense relations, yeah.

00:30:17 Merrily

Wow. So always think about that because in the Philippines, right, sort of in this Apollonian donation contacts that we're talking about like cultures like that, they're more connected to more of the emotional side of things, more imaginative, right. And so something that for me growing up.

00:30:37 Merrily

As in, in the American culture, I always thought like ohh it was like something. It was. It felt naive to me, right?

00:30:45 Merrily

Like oh so.

00:30:45 Merrily

Naive and so like ohh they just.

00:30:48 Merrily

Not cool, yeah.

00:30:50 Iain

Yeah. Yeah, no, we're we're raised in this. Yeah. Just just normalcy filter is it's it's is. It's engineered early on in our lives and it's very firm.

00:31:02 Iain

You know, and it it definitely has its place, you know, it's allowed the Western world to flourish as it did, of course.

00:31:09 Iain

You know but and.

00:31:10 Iain

As we you know, we're now in this. It's it's just so you know this Iron Age, you know Kali Yuga you know just just it's just everything's just so material it's just.

00:31:16

Right.

00:31:21 Iain

The weight of materialism is starting to crush us, I think as we can all sort of see, as at least we have been. You know this new age, you know, it's like academics.

00:31:30 Iain

Or whatever if we.

00:31:33 Iain

If you follow more Thelemic paradigm of aeons, you know this is if the past neon and the current and then the new aeon of.

00:31:44 Iain

Where we're going to be thinking differently now where it's going to be. The way I see it anyways, I should just be saying how I my interpretation of the procession of the authors of Alistair Crowley. Yeah, you know, as he said, is that, you know, as we are, as we move into it, it's an age of.

00:32:02 Iain

Existing more on the astral plane.

00:32:05 Iain

In it. With that comes a lot of problems. I think you know, social media is the creation of and the and it's and the progression of how social media has affected us is is a symptom of us living more on the astral it, you know, it allows us to exist this entire.

00:32:25 Iain

As entire you know, separate personas. For some people you know online, it's allowed entire existences online for people to have. It enables stuff like this, of course. And.

00:32:38 Iain

With it comes a lot less stability. You know, in the collective unconscious, especially a lot of as we're going through a lot of turmoil.

00:32:47 Iain

A lot of change.

00:32:48 Iain

As we sort of have a more.

00:32:51 Iain

As a more as consciousness than reality rounds, this becomes a bit more mutable.

00:32:57 Iain

I think you know it's gonna. We're like, you know, we're like children. You know, the child God hovercraft. You know, it's we're trying to find our way now and it's it's it's messy. But, you know, it's it's, it's how we're.

00:33:12 Iain

Trying to find our way.

00:33:14 Merrily

Oh man, you just drew like a really good line from Aleister Crowley and the Aeon to to social media in the Astral realm. That was good.

00:33:23 Merrily

I never considered.

00:33:23 Iain

I try I you know, I I I ramble a lot, but I try to get some I guess some gems.

00:33:24

That, yeah.

00:33:30 Iain

Out of me, that's fun.

00:33:30 Merrily

No, I followed it. It was great.

00:33:32 Merrily

Now I'm going to have to chew.

00:33:33 Merrily

On that too.

00:33:36 Merrily

Yeah, we did talk about we did touch on UFOs. I'm just going to ask if you personally have ever had sort of an experience.

00:33:45 Merrily

It's either yeah. Ohh you have. Let's hear it.

00:33:47 Iain

Yeah. Well, actually, it's it's just showing up in.

00:33:50 Iain

And obsessed with is is. It's a thought of obsessed with having. But whenever I read about these.

00:33:57 Iain

All of the events Patrick talks about in the book.

00:34:00 Iain

They all feel like something I've experienced. It's not that I have, it's just that it seems to meld so perfectly into my own memory where it's like when you release these stories, it's kind of I just accepts them. You know, it's like, Yep, that I can see that happening. Like, even the really weird ones when like the ship looks like the inside of it looks like.

00:34:20 Iain

Stone and he handsome pancakes. You know, it's just.

00:34:23 Iain

Like I can feel the dreamlike aspects of that. You know, the sort of, I guess, not uncanny. But it seems to follow Uncanniness seems to follow dreamlike limit all they.

00:34:32 Iain

All seem to come out.

00:34:33 Iain

You know, all those words seem to seem to follow, but I can instantly relate to them. And so it just, it just seems really true.

00:34:39

Right.

00:34:43 Iain

That these events come from something that we all are.

00:34:46 Iain

Connected to you know.

00:34:48 Iain

These these images archetypes, it's they they change with our cultural filter as things change, but they're they're always the same. And so when no matter what he's describing, whatever happens, there's a lot of different events. But I can just, I can see it. I can, I can really feel like I accept it.

00:35:08 Iain

You know from the from the Celtic ferry forts to the, you know, these to the crazy abductions. They just seem like things that I can believe.

00:35:18 Iain

Not believe happens because the thing that's the question did these things actually happen? They they sort of, did they? They did like stories like like a story happened. Did Star Wars happen, you know, like?

00:35:25 Merrily

Right.

00:35:29 Iain

That's like that sort of thing. It's a these.

00:35:33 Iain

They happen, but I think.

00:35:35 Iain

Especially with the, I guess we're all having UFO experiences right now. I guess it's just, you know, it's and I don't know about you, but hearing about them, I have little interest. Like when it came to the hearings and stuff about, you know, this guy, it's.

00:35:40 Merrily

That's true.

00:35:55 Iain

I'm kind of like.

00:35:57 Iain

It's cynical and edgy, but it's just like, whoa, what are they trying to?

00:36:00 Iain

Distract us from.

00:36:01 Iain

Right now, with these stories, it's just.

00:36:03 Iain

Like and. That's probably the case, I don't know.

00:36:05 Iain

But it's like because.

00:36:08 Iain

So we're not going to hear about it from in a Congress here, you know like.

00:36:13 Iain

But I'm very interested. But these things regardless, I think you know, there's still a lot of evidence of what of these events happening. A lot of you know.

00:36:21 Iain

Military footage and stuff and.

00:36:26 Iain

You know, I I.

00:36:27 Iain

Reflexively want to explore the logical explanations of, you know, the tic Tacs and and things, but.

00:36:32 Merrily

Right.

00:36:34 Iain

But the I the truth is that I I don't. I think it's that you know that it can't be explained, not rationally, not, you know, like the crops, circles.

00:36:46 Merrily

Right.

00:36:47 Iain

Or UFOs. It's just that it's the.

00:36:51 Iain

It's it's it's a direct it.

00:36:53 Iain

Yeah, OK, yeah, I said.

00:36:56 Iain

I always chew on them as well. Yeah, I chew on the idea of crop circles a lot because it's just something that if you accept, they they existed, you know, the pictures in the book. You know, if you accept that those happens.

00:37:07 Iain

You know that they were a thing that appeared on on fields, you know, like you just tried to explain to yourself how.

00:37:13 Iain

Did those happen?

00:37:15 Iain

They're perfect, you know.

00:37:16 Iain

The they tried to do experiments, you know, with science, you know, like scientists tried to.

00:37:21 Iain

Replicate them. They couldn't, not with the precision that they appeared with. Right? So you're you're forever gonna be trying to explain that rationally. And you know, like I said, science is forever going to be, you know, come up with theories that.

00:37:36 Iain

Explain like you know, 80% of it it, you know it sounds pretty good. It sounds pretty good plasma for disease. You know. Yeah. You know, it's like that can happen. I've seen dust double s. You know, I've seen wind happen. I've seen, you know, flash fires happen. So you know something combining the two could you know like maybe plastic.

00:37:56 Iain

To see something and it's just something that we can just comfortably sit.

00:38:00 Iain

With and it's like.

00:38:02 Iain

Science can just let that go, but if and that, then, then, then, then then the normalcy filter kicks in. And then we also sort of collectively.

00:38:11 Iain

Really, the crop circles just sort of fiction. You know, I think a lot of people just think that they're like this fun idea or urban legends. You know, I think a lot of people would be shocked to see pictures of crop circles like as they were reported when they happened. I think a lot of us just, you know, we just kind of accept them.

00:38:28 Iain

As possible fiction.

00:38:31 Iain

And that's where it's sort of going to stay.

00:38:36 Iain

I also think a lot about the best crop circles specifically was when Patrick, you know, brought in Hermes and his role with Apollo, you know, and the the legend that we know. And Hermes was a.

00:38:49 Iain

Newborn he he swiped he.

00:38:52 Iain

Swapped all the heads of he's like he swapped the ends of the.

00:38:56 Iain

Battle. Yeah, like, yeah, he basically mutilated all of Apollo's immortal cat, you know, cat.

00:39:03 Merrily

That's right.

00:39:04 Iain

Cats, just as a random prank. And so I just apply that, you know, it's just sort of it's.

00:39:10 Iain

It's a taunt.

00:39:12 Iain

You know it's, you know, like these these events, you know, UFOs and crop circles. You know, Patrick puts them on a continuum. You know, they of between where he links plasma vortices to UFO's, to fairies as and then to.

00:39:31

The other one.

00:39:33 Merrily

Yeah, I can see the diagram.

00:39:35 Iain

Yeah, where links.

00:39:37 Iain

All the phenomena.

00:39:38 Iain

It's sort of between plasma vortices, you know, as a scientific explanation of crop circles, to UFOs, to fairies and the whirlwinds.

00:39:50 Iain

And it sort of links them across a continuum.

00:39:53 Iain

That sort of changes bases based on your cultural understandings or.

00:39:57 Iain

Context basically for them to all being.

00:40:01 Iain

It's he does give a nice.

00:40:03 Iain

Little tidy bow around linking phenomena together.

00:40:06 Iain

And that's kind of what I like in that.

00:40:09 Iain

You can't explain it all together, but I really like his idea that it all exists, you know, as a on a continuum as the same thing, but just.

00:40:19 Iain

What we see can vary in that, but it's all coming from the sort of it's the taunt of.

00:40:21 Merrily

Right.

00:40:26 Iain

Hermes, you know of a.

00:40:28 Iain

A reflexive need to explain and just that we that we can't.

00:40:34 Iain

But but we will also be able to forget.

00:40:38 Iain

That fact and just.

00:40:39 Iain

Kind of move on and live live day-to-day.

00:40:41 Iain

Accepting both those realities.

00:40:43 Iain

Is is so.

00:40:46 Iain

I think demonic reality is because living fully in demonic reality is just would just be being insane. Yeah, so you need to be able to function as well. And I've always kind of thought of this sort of.

00:40:58 Iain

Mindset as well. Is this a sort of controlled insanity where you just.

00:41:02 Iain

Where you allow for.

00:41:04 Iain

Crazy things, but.

00:41:07 Iain

Live in a rational world.

00:41:08 Merrily

Yeah, I mean, it makes it more interesting kind of. I mean, you're the example that you're talking about with like Hermes and and Apollo's cattle. It's like. But why Hermes? He's like uh, exactly. Yeah.

00:41:21 Iain

Exactly, yeah.

00:41:23 Iain

He's he's a baby. He was a baby.

00:41:25 Iain

At this time, he had.

00:41:25 Merrily

Yeah, exactly.

00:41:27 Iain

He had. It was pure.

00:41:28 Iain

Reflex, you know? And just it's just, yeah, the, you know exactly why. And you know that leads and that's.

00:41:34 Iain

Sounds exactly like the other chupacabra.

00:41:37 Merrily

Yeah. And I know sort of, you know, I had in our chat I had mentioned.

00:41:43 Merrily

Sort of Freddie Silva and he talks a lot about the crop circles. And so the the reason I thought it was and he's interesting is because he talks more around people's experiences, right? Like, that's the evidence. Like, right. Like he'll he'll he has these examples of people seeing like steam rising from a field.

00:42:04 Merrily

And they go and look, and then there's a crop circle. Like there wasn't one there before, but now there's a crop. And so like you.

00:42:11 Merrily

Have to do you believe somebody's story or?

00:42:13 Merrily

Do you not, you know, like?

00:42:17 Merrily

It's kind of like that.

00:42:18 Iain

Yeah, I cause I I've had this phrase in my head for a bit low that memories are demonic. Every time you recall, you know a memory, you know, as they say, everyone loves this little factoid, you know, and you every time you remember a a memory something's different. You change. Something's different. You know, it's kind of like you're you're recalling the recall.

00:42:36 Merrily

That's right.

00:42:39 Iain

Memory and so and how much of our identity is based on memory? You know it's, you know, people. There's arguments that if you wipe someones memory, you kill them effectively you know and to and for that to be so important and to be very demonic at the same time. It's just to show that we are we are well.

00:42:59 Iain

Like like Damons, we're both. You know, we partake.

00:43:03 Iain

Of both worlds.

00:43:04 Merrily

Right.

00:43:05 Iain

And so it's important, I think, to consciously acknowledge that and it helps to live that way as well, kind of letting go of the need for explanation has been.

00:43:16 Iain

Very helpful for me in my own.

00:43:18 Iain

Life, I must say, yeah.

00:43:21 Merrily

So I'm kind of reaching back to the earlier part of our discussion because you talked about mentioning well, because I know you are setting the kabal or have been studying the Kabbalah or have in your past and I have that's kind of a current obsession with mine as well. So how do you square and you probably already answered this because you're talking about living in both.

00:43:42

Of these.

00:43:43 Merrily

Understandings. But how do you square?

00:43:46 Merrily

Because like basically the Kabbalah is like, you want an explanation for reality and consciousness and what's going on here you go right, like constantly.

00:43:57 Iain

I love it you.

00:43:58 Iain

Know, I gotta say it's it's as far as chewing on things. Yeah, I'll just fall asleep. Just, you know, like all of the.

00:43:58

I yeah.

00:44:05 Iain

You know all of the.

00:44:08 Iain

It's really satisfying, yeah.

00:44:11 Merrily

So how do you do you? How do you? Because I have trouble with this recently, like squaring.

00:44:17 Merrily

Because I don't want to fall into.

00:44:18 Merrily

This trap of like.

00:44:21 Merrily

Everything is the Kabbalah which sometimes I'm like everything is the.

00:44:24 Merrily

Kabbalah, right?

00:44:25 Iain

I mean, I think as you learn it, you're just gonna. Yeah. Yeah. It's just something you just. It's the way you live for a while and then you just sort of settles in. And it just comes a bit more background. It becomes a bit more background or something. I can just sort of think of if I want to, you know, but yeah. Yeah. But I definitely remember, you know, you're just cuz you're also starting. You're trying to learn it and recall it.

00:44:33 Merrily

Oh, OK.

00:44:36 Merrily

Got you.

00:44:47 Iain

Well, do I remember it all? Yeah.

00:44:50 Merrily

Yes. Yeah. Do you remember all of the Kabbalah? Come on.

00:44:54 Iain

Ohh yeah, yeah yeah, it's.

00:44:56 Iain

You like the you like the kabala list. All of the all of.

00:44:59 Iain

The pads, yeah.

00:45:00 Merrily

List The paths, list all the different worlds list how the the yeah, yeah.

00:45:06 Iain

Yeah, it seeps in over time.

00:45:09 Iain

It really does, especially.

00:45:11 Iain

Because it just helps you learn.

00:45:12 Iain

I mean, you could learn it solely with just tarot. Just learning, you know, just how tarot work.

00:45:15 Merrily

Oh yeah.

00:45:17 Iain

You can. That's largely how I did it. What I like is about how it's all linked.

00:45:23 Iain

So you sort of learn everything with everything else. It's like I'm not. I'm not huge on astrology, but I just. I know it. I got I I never, I never. I never even made a point to learn it.

00:45:28 Merrily

Right.

00:45:30 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:34 Iain

But it's just to learn passively, just to.

00:45:37 Iain

Mostly tarot, yeah.

00:45:39 Merrily

Was kind of like I didn't intend on learning Hebrew, but guess what? It's kind of.

00:45:43 Iain

Exactly. No, I know all.

00:45:43 Merrily

Happening, yeah.

00:45:45 Iain

The numbered you know exactly, yeah.

00:45:48 Iain

Yeah, some of it just happens passively and.

00:45:50 Iain

That's the sort of.

00:45:51 Iain

Like I said, in the very beginning, you know, just building that you know that site, you know that consciousness, magical consciousness, you know, that can sort of.

00:46:00 Iain

That very well accepts A demonic one as well.

00:46:03 Iain

They argue they're pretty much the same. Probably yeah.

00:46:07 Merrily

So again, sort of reaching back because you mentioned you know, at least in a cult.

00:46:10 Iain

Jump. Jump around.

00:46:12 Merrily

Yeah. No, no, no, I you mentioned so many great things. I'm trying to like wanting to talk about them. We talked about like the hot topic or I think it's always a hot topic is like the HGA, right? The Holy Guardian Angel and the occult in our in the occult.

00:46:27 Merrily

In certain systems.

00:46:29 Merrily

Like, how do you?

00:46:31 Merrily

How do you think about that and how do you think about it? Like, what do you in in relation to sort of this, Damon, Damon, demonic reality?

00:46:43 Iain

As far as the terms being very similar cause I think you could argue you know that the daimonic reality Patrick Harper describes is not the same as the Holy Daemon from, you know, front or rocker, but.

00:46:55 Merrily

Right.

00:46:59 Iain

The demonic aspects, you know, I think very well I think applies to the Holy Guard in that it's, you know, partakes of both, you know, being from you know above and below you.

00:47:11 Iain

Know as far as kapala, you know the Holy garden.

00:47:14 Iain

Angels right in the middle and.

00:47:15 Iain

Tip for us so he's able to go both up and down, you know and.

00:47:19 Iain

Sort of as our higher self as they say.

00:47:24 Iain

As far as you know, personal.

00:47:27 Iain

Experiences with my own.

00:47:31 Iain

Yeah, I think there's there's that voice that exists. But I think mostly it's just intuition really and.

00:47:39 Iain

And I think it's just.

00:47:41 Iain

The contact that I have had is mostly just telling me to meditate. That's it. And I accept that. And I know it's true. And so and that's always my advice to anyone really. It's just you need it's.

00:47:49

Right, yes.

00:47:56 Iain

It's the. It's what, people.

00:47:58 Iain

I think it's not. It's what I don't want to.

00:47:59 Iain

Hear as well, which is you know.

00:48:02 Iain

That's kind of.

00:48:02 Iain

It you know, but that's why that's why you.

00:48:04 Iain

Need to do it.

00:48:05 Iain

Yeah, it's, it's, it's precisely why and it's been the most helpful thing. And so I that's I continue to listen to my holy Guardian Angel eventually. Maybe you'll say something different, but I'm fine with just meditating because I know it's what I need to do. And I. Yeah. And we all be better for it. I'm sorry to say, you know, is there a shortcut? You know, there's no gallery.

00:48:25 Iain

Magic Sigil of meditation, or you know.

00:48:29 Merrily

Yeah, I yeah, I think any, geez, any sort of.

00:48:35 Merrily

Anything is like probably just need to meditate and nobody wants to hear it because.

00:48:40 Merrily

Meditation is the opposite of what we have been learning to do our entire lives, meaning, like everybody, you know, as soon as I, I'll say as soon as you're like 18 and everybody's like, go, go, go. You have all these things you gotta check off the list. You gotta make sure because you're gonna you got to be a certain type of person and then so you're just running.

00:49:01 Merrily

Basically, and then now somebody's like, no, you just have to sit with your thoughts for like 30 minutes.

00:49:08

Good luck.

00:49:10

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:14 Merrily

Yeah. And then it's because I do some healing work with some clients right now and they're like, well, how do I listen to my guides? I'm like, you're not pretty much what you just said. You're not.

00:49:24 Merrily

Going to like to hear this, you're gonna need to meditate.

00:49:28 Merrily

Yeah, because you need to parse out.

00:49:32 Merrily

The different messages that are in your head, other people's messages, the messages you've been telling yourself.

00:49:39 Merrily

Get that all out of there and then you'll notice when the the other thing comes in.

00:49:44 Iain

Yeah, I mean, well that's I find that Step 2 step one is just realizing that you're not your thoughts.

00:49:51 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

00:49:52 Iain

Yeah. First of all, being like, yeah, realizing that there's like, you know, like that's that was a big.

00:49:57 Iain

Part for me and just just sent to her and yeah.

00:50:02 Iain

The centering with the little flame in the void has been very good. You know, I think you know, I really.

00:50:08 Iain

Like that method.

00:50:09 Merrily

I think that Josephine, Josephine talks about that method.

00:50:13 Merrily

In her practice.

00:50:13 Iain

And yeah, if Freda rocker I know.

00:50:16 Merrily

Oh, fraud rocker does.

00:50:17 Iain

To you, they're links too.

00:50:19 Merrily

I know. Oh yeah, I forgot. I think he helped write Queria with her or.

00:50:23 Merrily

Something like that.

00:50:24 Iain

Yeah, they work together, yeah.

00:50:25 Iain

Something like that, yeah.

00:50:28 Merrily

Well, cool. Let's see, I have.

00:50:32 Merrily

OK. So we talked about the HOA. I'm going to kind of roll into your thoughts on initiation rates because I personally feel like that is a huge piece for demonic reality. So I'll just leave it.

00:50:46 Merrily

There my question.

00:50:48 Iain

Yeah, definitely. I wrote for initiations.

00:50:52 Iain

I found that they are.

00:50:55 Iain

Used to usually break someone out of what's.

00:50:59 Iain

I'm actually let's let's back up, because right now, reading what Prometheus Rising by Robert Henson Wilson and it's about, you know, it's a lot about to do with psychology and you.

00:51:10 Iain

Sort of.

00:51:11 Iain

Somewhat links with the the esoteric authors of the past, the famous ones you know of the forward by Israel.

00:51:21 Iain

In it but he.

00:51:23 Iain

He talks about reality tunnels and they're basically a series of set of axioms. You know these sort of.

00:51:34 Iain

Ways we interact with and live in the world, and so it's just sort of these automatic truths you accept? Yes. As far as axioms are. You know that that you know, of basically we live in a pretty Western reality tunnel, as they say, you know, this Apollonian Apollonian reality tunnel. It's just a fun way to sort of.

00:51:54 Iain

Explain people you know, explain different points of view and stuff. You know, like, I'm not from their reality tunnel. You can sort of use a way to contextualize different points of view and.

00:52:06 Iain

Initiation rights. They're usually used to break someone out of their conventional reality tunnel and just to allow the mind to sort of be able to operate on the higher the higher levels needed for whatever organization is doing. These initiation rates for, it's just a way to prime the mind to be able to.

00:52:25 Iain

Usually accept these systems that they're going to be learning and stuff, so it gets rid of that normalcy. Filter a bit, helps loosen that, hmm. Oftentimes because a lot of times they're trying to recreate these profound archetypal experiences. You know, like the illusion mysteries, you know, they say they.

00:52:32 Merrily

MM.

00:52:45 Iain

Reenacted Persephone, being captured by Zeus and taken to the underworld, where they take the role of Persephone and experience the underworld. And they get to come back.

00:52:54 Iain

Up and.

00:52:55 Iain

Take that knowledge with them. You know it was very important, and apparently, you know everyone who's who in ancient Greece did it. And so it's.

00:53:05 Iain

I sort of think as an example, it's initiation would be this way to. If you take an Ant.

00:53:13 Iain

You know that lives in a largely 2 dimensional world, you know can't.

00:53:16 Iain

Go up, up.

00:53:17 Iain

Really. And I know they go. I know they go down but.

00:53:19 Iain

They you.

00:53:20 Iain

Know they operate 2 dimensionally as you.

00:53:22 Iain

Can imagine you.

00:53:23 Iain

Know. Imagine it's just on on.

00:53:24 Iain

The floor, you know, if you can initiate that Ant into not if if into knowing that there's no.

00:53:32 Iain

Above to it.

00:53:33 Iain

Is that the way up the Z axis exists would basically be it would be initiating that Ant.

00:53:41 Iain

So that's the easy definition. I think it would be to be able to just be aware of a reality, even if you can't access it. It's just, you know, it's just a way to make you especially and to to feel that and to experience it directly, because that's the initiations, you know, is something that stays with you.

00:54:02 Iain

So you know, this is sort of visceral experience where you've kind of like, I know there's more instead of just kind of being like I'm reading about it. Yeah, I'm hoping there's more, you know.

00:54:13 Iain

It's kind of that imposter syndrome as well, like, have I been initiated, it's. I've read enough, I think I've been passively happened. I've read enough books, you know, I feel initiated common examples. I think a lot of you know, like near death experiences can initiate a lot of people born again. Christians I would say are initiated yeah they're initiated because they they.

00:54:16 Merrily

Right.

00:54:33 Iain

You know, often you find it to be the most.

00:54:36 Iain

The most Christian you know, they, they, they, they, the most fervent Christians, you know, you know often born against because they, you know, seem to be usually come it often comes from your experiences and then.

00:54:49 Iain

It can it.

00:54:49 Iain

Can it even just?

00:54:50 Iain

Be something like movies as well.

00:54:52 Iain

Or any pop culture. A lot of you.

00:54:54 Iain

Know that's why art.

00:54:56 Iain

Exists a lot of times. You could argue you know, as a way of initiating the minds to different possibilities or emotions even.

00:55:06 Merrily

Yeah, I could definitely say because I thinking about initiations across just.

00:55:12 Merrily

Just the western world in general, like we've gotten rid of so many, except if you're like, even you know, I always think about, you know, we grew up in America. So we're we're kind of taught or learned about Native Americans and how, you know, if you were A at least a native.

00:55:26 Merrily

American boy of a certain tribe, you.

00:55:28 Merrily

Would they give you a knife and send you out into the woods and like figure it out?

00:55:33 Merrily

Few days or whatever.

00:55:34 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

00:55:35 Merrily

And we don't really have that. We don't really have that for well for men and boys in particular, I mean women, we go through obviously our own biological initiation that happens when you're.

00:55:46 Merrily

Age teenagers. But we've kind of gotten rid of a lot of initiations as a society and then added on to what you're you're talking about in your description about people like spiritually being initiated back, right because you're you lived your apple in your materialistic world, but.

00:56:06 Merrily

That's what you know, death is death. Death is gonna coming coming soon. So you're kind of need to be reinitiated back into the spiritual.

00:56:15 Merrily

Where you know, and that's sort of what I believe is happening for a lot of people who are experiencing demonic realities and DE's alien like they're they're sort of being primed to be guides, you know, in my opinion.

00:56:28

Yeah, yeah.

00:56:31 Iain

Because, I mean, they they instantly become guides like the moment they choose to share these stories, you know, cause often the story seems to.

00:56:40 Iain

This through the conviction of the person who originally tells the story, and then whoever gets told and then also propagates the conviction that it was true. And it happened, right, you know, like that is this sort of it's it's intangible obviously, but it it carries through, I think it definitely adds to is definitely the reason why.

00:57:01 Iain

Some persistence, some don't. You know, I think you know the the folks is you know what people say. Whatever you know, it's it's not. It wasn't a real, embodied felt experience was not going to carry over.

00:57:11 Merrily

Right.

00:57:12 Iain

You know, so I think it's a big part of what?

00:57:15 Iain

Makes these stories possible, and it's also it makes them possible possible to happen at all. You know, is that.

00:57:23 Iain

The way memory can sort of smooth over and rewrite and basically turn it into something that was probably it wasn't.

00:57:35 Merrily

Right.

00:57:36 Iain

And so, yeah, that that demonic aspect of it where it's, you know, the story now is.

00:57:41 Iain

Most like most.

00:57:42 Iain

Stories probably aren't anything like the original telling.

00:57:46 Iain

Of it, they've been.

00:57:47 Iain

Reshaped so many times, but there's something essential about it that remains.

00:57:52 Merrily

I know because I listened to a lot of podcasts and YouTube shows about people explaining their IDE's and exactly what you're explaining. It's like you're you're basically you're having to go on somebody's anecdotal evidence of what, what they experienced, but people love it. It's like hugely popular.

00:58:13 Merrily

Because I think people are craving like, wow, this person is very convincing and seems like they're they went through a thing like, what does that mean? Yeah.

00:58:23 Merrily

Very cool. And I also thinking about, you know, being magicians and having a magical practice, like we've sort of taken on the mantle to become our own guides and shamans and.

00:58:35 Merrily

To kind of figure it.

00:58:35 Merrily

Out sometimes we and I think that's why a lot of magicians wind up writing books, to be honest, because they're wanting to share.

00:58:43 Iain

Yeah, that's a that reflex is. Is, is strong too. A lot of times like I want.

00:58:49 Iain

I want to share.

00:58:51 Iain

You know, like the stuff I experienced, but you know the 4th maximum. Keep silence and so.

00:58:56

Right.

00:58:57 Iain

You know it's.

00:59:01 Iain

It I find it. You know the quiet satisfaction. Just working alone, you know, because I have a partner who's who doesn't do anything like this. You know, she's as.

00:59:13 Iain

As a loose.

00:59:13 Iain

Will say just a muggle, you know like and we keep it. We keep it separate and you know, just I'll tell her, you know, just like every morning, it's like hey.

00:59:15 Merrily

Right.

00:59:21 Iain

I'm going.

00:59:21 Iain

Go do ritual and meditate. See you a little.

00:59:24 Iain

Bit you know it's.

00:59:25 Iain

Just a part of the routine, but it's just like completely separate apart from her just seeing to live around all my art and.

00:59:31 Iain

Books and stuff.

00:59:32 Iain

It's like I tell her, you know, like a few days ago, I.

00:59:35 Iain

Got a zoo statue? He's going to be.

00:59:37 Merrily

Over there now. Me too. Yeah.

00:59:40 Iain

I will falter.

00:59:41 Iain

And working on it.

00:59:43 Merrily

Did you make a or have you or do you already have like a Jupiter box and all that fun stuff?

00:59:49 Iain

Yeah, I'm working. I I drew on.

00:59:51 Merrily

It here you drew on.

00:59:53 Iain

In my cash box is the four.

00:59:56 Iain

Symbols. Eric got this. I got his. His one. You know his his special one. And then just the regular one I got. This is the geomantic for acquisition which is Jupiter. So I figured geomantic earthly money is good.

00:59:57 Merrily

Oh, nice.

01:00:16 Iain

Money. And there's his four goddesses one. His wife figured it'd be good as well, but on Thursday I'm gonna paint.

01:00:23 Iain

It, you know, obviously on Thursday.

01:00:25

You know that.

01:00:25 Merrily

Yeah, yeah, I'd like that.

01:00:27 Iain

The success stories.

01:00:29 Iain

Too compelling. I'm just kind of like.

01:00:31 Merrily

I know.

01:00:31 Iain

Really. What am I doing if I'm not doing wealth magic? Is all this money I spend on books right? I gotta be doing. You know, if I'm doing nothing else while I'm doing so I'm. I'm doing it. I'm.

01:00:43 Merrily

Getting it on it gotta attract the money so you can buy.

01:00:46 Merrily

Those expensive magic books and out of print copies, yeah.

01:00:50 Iain

Yeah, because now I'm satisfied because.

01:00:53 Iain

I got. I thought I'd be happy.

01:00:55 Iain

With hard to like.

01:00:56 Iain

No, and I like there's a dish and they're so nice.

01:00:59 Iain

They're so great to hold.

01:01:00 Iain

Oh, I can't help it.

01:01:02 Merrily

I love that Jupiter energy.

01:01:04 Merrily

That did this book impact your magical practice?

01:01:08 Iain

I I would say it hasn't. No, not my practice. It hasn't it. I don't think it's.

01:01:13

You know.

01:01:15 Iain

Yeah, it hasn't really.

01:01:18 Iain

It definitely has as a passive influence or something. Definitely. When I first read it as well.

01:01:24 Iain

When it just sort of helps loosen.

01:01:26 Iain

The normalcy filter you know, and giving these stories, especially some more concrete ones with the.

01:01:34 Iain

Evidence like that will fairy shoe.

01:01:38 Iain

Made of mouse skin that exists, you know like.

01:01:43 Iain

Chew on that, yeah.

01:01:44

Yeah, yeah.

01:01:46 Iain

Who made you know, like they said, might have been a journeyman peace. You know, like to to demonstrate skill. But why was it in the?

01:01:52 Iain

Middle of nowhere.

01:01:53 Iain

Yeah, you know, it's.

01:01:54 Iain

Just this this, sorry for the listening. You know listeners the story about this in Ireland because all the fairy stories seem to happen. That's what legends are.

01:02:03 Iain

Obviously. So obviously that's where they would experience them, but they just.

01:02:03

That's right.

01:02:06 Iain

Found you know, off the beaten path, you.

01:02:08 Iain

Know this tiny, tiny little shoe?

01:02:10 Iain

And it turned out to be it looks like it was a. Think finally worked. He was all stitching and it turned. Made of mouse skin, you know, and it exists. And I I saw a picture.

01:02:20 Iain

Of it in.

01:02:21 Iain

The book, you know. So it's just like.

01:02:22 Iain

Explain that you know. And so that's.

01:02:25 Iain

And and you can't and that's sort.

01:02:27 Iain

Of the point, but it's as concrete as these, you know.

01:02:30 Iain

Crop circles and so.

01:02:33 Iain

For my practice, just having those stories and just being able to be like those things.

01:02:39 Iain

Possibly happens, ostensibly, and so it was. It helps just.

01:02:46 Iain

Accept some more accepted that demonic reality is possible, and so that helps with mental states. During during ritual, I would say definitely in the in meditation. So I would say loosely has helped my practice but.

01:03:07 Iain

As far as his conclusions about how.

01:03:12 Iain

I'm not sure you know.

01:03:13 Iain

Like it, I don't know.

01:03:15 Merrily

If I agree.

01:03:16 Iain

With everything he says. But it's it, isn't it? It's not really that important. I don't think at the end of the day because he what he gives it, it's a way of mapping reality, or at least it's an attempt to and so.

01:03:30 Iain

I think he has a lot of compelling arguments and.

01:03:35 Iain

But at the end of the day, the arguments themselves are unimportant, which is is, I think, the ultimate point. And So what what matters, I think, is how it, how it really feels. You know, the it's the importance of embodied experience, you know, and because.

01:03:54 Iain

Ultimately all these.

01:03:56 Iain

You know all the events he gives in the.

01:03:58 Iain

Book, you know, happen to one person.

01:04:00 Iain

Most of the time you.

01:04:01 Merrily

Right.

01:04:01 Iain

Know like there's some. There's some loose shared events, but it's just the highly highly subjective experiences that you know that you know happen and and you you need to to sort of put it in the context of.

01:04:14 Iain

Of of yourself. You know of it happening to you and like, how does how does something happening to you actually, you know, like feel, you know, the reading a story about, you know, versus like.

01:04:26 Iain

Being there and seeing, you know, like whatever it was, the freaking bright lights blinding you and the weird smell, you know, and seeing, you know, and seeing it being come from a A ship, it doesn't matter how. If that happens to you, it doesn't matter, you know how hard that normally filter is going to be grinding in to try to smooth that out of your memory.

01:04:45 Merrily

Right.

01:04:46 Iain

That's that's gonna be a very it's it's a strong, indelible mark, you know. And then then then you gonna share that story and it's gonna propagate, you know, and the the propagation of these stories I think is just as much of the original events as the event itself. You know, it's sort of.

01:05:02 Merrily

Right.

01:05:04 Iain

Partaking of both, you know, like demonic events are both, you know, real events and stories at the same time. You know, I think that's how you just accept.

01:05:14 Iain

Them, you know like.

01:05:15 Iain

It happened, but it's also a story because I think that's ultimately where these narratives come from. It's the the stories we all know.

01:05:24 Iain

Underneath the.

01:05:25 Merrily

Yeah, I like, I like that conclusion and explanation. That's really good. I do. I know it did make me laugh, though, because toward the end of the book, he was basically like, yeah, I'm telling you that, you know, to think all Apollonian is is a detriment. Right. You got to, like, accept the Dionysian way of thinking.

01:05:45 Merrily

But he's like, but I totally get that this me writing this book is very Apollonian and like putting structure around there. Right. So I didn't think that was funny.

01:05:54 Iain

Yeah, it is. Oh, my. No, it's just like it reminds me of the phrase when the OR. I think it was David Hyde Smith said that, you know, it's just like trying to understand non duality.

01:06:10 Iain

Is in itself duality. That's infuriating. That that statement is infuriating and it's yes, you know, it's just like ultimately I'm trying to tell you these.

01:06:20 Iain

Deeply sensual, mysterious experiences with words. You know the most. Yeah, the least useful thing and.

01:06:31 Iain

But that's.

01:06:33 Iain

An aspect that is why the stories are able to exist as their imprecise nature allows it to sort of you sort of fill in the gaps a bit and then it becomes a bit more.

01:06:43 Iain

Personal and then.

01:06:44 Iain

A bit more believable at the.

01:06:45 Iain

Same time and so.

01:06:48 Iain

That's that's why I think it was really fascinating about all these stories that they they really do feel like.

01:06:55 Iain

Something that could I could I could be remembering and I think that was the most compelling part about it and just maybe accepts that, you know, his premise that they're psychologically based events, you know, cuz I can.

01:07:09 Iain

I feel it.

01:07:10 Iain

I feel like I.

01:07:11 Iain

Have especially like dreams. They all feel like dreams could.

01:07:14 Iain

Have had.

01:07:15 Iain

Very dreamlike nature to.

01:07:18 Merrily

Well, wow. Yeah, thank you. So.

01:07:19 Merrily

Much very articulate. This is very enjoyable. I appreciate this conversation so much.

01:07:24 Iain

Oh I.

01:07:25 Iain

I tried. I was very yeah, very, very nervous I.

01:07:28 Iain

Ramble a lot. I felt so. OK, cool.

01:07:29 Merrily

No, you were great. No, you're great.

01:07:33 Merrily

So not to totally deviate, but I tend to ask the question at the end of like sort of a motto that I say motto and I feel like I need to change that. But either like a motto or mantra or some words of wisdom.

01:07:47 Merrily

That you've been enjoying lately, that.

01:07:48 Merrily

You'd like to share?

01:07:52 Iain

Well, I'm just. I'm the.

01:07:53 Iain

Phrase I I gave her but not phrase but.

01:07:58 Iain

That we've been saying it a lot, so it's less profound than like, you know, but it's like a try to lesson, you know, your Apollonian grip on your on your own personal microcosm. You know, the the world, the subjective.

01:08:10 Iain

World you experience.

01:08:11 Iain

And and how and how it intersects with the macrocosm, cuz we exist in the space?

01:08:18 Iain

Right in between, you know, between macro and micro, we don't exist solely in the micro cause them, you know and and we we partake of both and so stop you know.

01:08:32 Iain

Let's you know, let the stories kind of leak in and let 2 truths exist. You know, I think that's it's hard, but it's, you know, like, don't you know it's it's the reflex for explanation. I think I don't know how.

01:08:52 Iain

You know, especially as a society will get.

01:08:55 Iain

It's it's, but it's so useful. Yeah. So I think, you know, there's time. There's a time and place, but as far as words of wisdom, specifically, as I said before, it's the words of wisdom I receive. And so I'm going to spread the.

01:09:12 Iain

Gospel of meditation.

01:09:14 Iain

That's it.

01:09:15 Iain

It's meditate. Learn silence.

01:09:20 Iain

Know where you are.

01:09:23 Iain

Be oriented. You know it's simple matter of, you know, in a cult fashion, you know, it's just the directional rituals, you know, it's it's whether you do the LBRP just understands, you know, North, SE, W up down. You know, I think that's being knowing where the center of view is. You know, it's just.

01:09:44 Iain

It's hard to explain if you don't do it regularly and stuff do the directionals you know, walk through six ways. You know, as we like to that I used to share a lot, but.

01:09:55 Iain

You know, just knowing.

01:09:57 Iain

Where you are.

01:09:59 Iain

Be aligned to the directions and just.

01:10:04 Iain

And my last four was Ghost Raccoon.

01:10:07

That's just fine.

01:10:08 Iain

Because it's just. That's just the phrase I use. It's it's. I guess it's my reflexive mantra phrase, you know, just sort of like, you know, and events. You know, it doesn't matter if things actually happen especially.

01:10:18 Iain

You know.

01:10:19 Iain

Shrink in? Yeah, phase away there, yeah.

01:10:24 Merrily

Yeah, cool. And I like the the thought around directions. And you mentioned Aidan Walker in six ways and he talks about the crossroads and you're like kind.

01:10:35 Merrily

Of blew my mind a little.

01:10:35 Iain

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:37 Iain

That's all I could think, I'm just cause I'm like.

01:10:39 Iain

Cause it's like why did?

01:10:39 Iain

I write this for. This is like know your directions cause like I know.

01:10:43 Iain

That's important. But you know what? If I'm telling someone to like I'm trying to think it's a better context, you know, it's.

01:10:44 Merrily

Yeah, yeah.

01:10:49 Iain

Like to be aligned to the directions you know, I guess you know with the.

01:10:54 Iain

Before with the east, you know you see what's coming towards you, you know, with the with the West, you know, it's what's we're seeing behind you. It also, you know, is your the East would be your active consciousness in the West is the unconscious. So just knowing having it behind you and in front being forward thinking with your consciousness but being at the same time.

01:11:14 Iain

Knowing what's behind you and then the South, you know, with your peak and then the north with the with the low, you know it's just the just in being in the middle, the center of the flow.

01:11:31 Iain

Existing that way has been very beneficial as well.

01:11:34 Merrily

Well, well, yeah. Again, you're very articulate with how you explain these things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's kind of firing off my brain.

01:11:40 Iain

That sounds.

01:11:41 Merrily

Cells, yeah.

01:11:44 Merrily

So, well, thank you so much. Is there a way we talked a little bit about how folks if they want to reach out to you, how they can contact you. So how could they?

01:11:53 Iain

Yeah, if you got any good speech, therapist, public speaking people, I would love to hear from you and that's fine. I was just looking. I think I'm just.

01:12:04 Iain

King Rainbow 8.

01:12:06 Iain

All one word on discord. I've got a skull for a head in the picture, so it's probably it's someone else. Supply you. It'll be that picture. So yeah, if you wanna say something, that'd be cool. I don't know what, but sure.

01:12:22 Merrily

Well, thank you so much Ian for sharing all your thoughts. I'm wanting to talk about this book and I'm so jazzed because you're probably one of the few people that I've mentioned this book to you and I'm like, but it's so good and I love that you were willing to talk about it.

01:12:37

Yeah, yeah, I.

01:12:38 Iain

Appreciate that. Thank you.

01:12:40

Thank you.

01:12:44 Merrily

That was the discussion of the book Daimonic Reality by Patrick Harpur with left hand magical practitioner Iain Shelley. Please see the show notes on how to find Iain on Discord and the links to the books mentioned in our.

01:12:54 Merrily

Discussion to help support the show and be involved in its growth. Please be sure to leave a review on iTunes as it helps immensely. New episodes of the Casual.

01:13:04 Merrily

Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.

13:04 Merrily

Temple will be released every Wednesday. To learn more, please visit casualtemple.com where you can listen to past episodes and learn about my energy healing and psychic reading offerings with celestial ring guidance.

01:13:16 Merrily

Please be sure to share this episode with the people in your life who enjoy this content. Do check out the other episodes of the Casual Temple podcast on Your Preferred podcast app. There's a casual temple YouTube channel, so please like, share, and subscribe and click the notification Bell. And thank you so much for listening.

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EPISODE 7 - IAIN SHELLEY

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